This morning on the local news (KING TV, Seattle) I saw a short piece on
Biosphere II, the bubble environment in Arizona run by a cult.  The
short piece showed smiling partcipants filing off in jumpsuits.  The
newscast sounded like a PR piece from the cult that runs Biosphere,
with no mention of any of the controversy that I have read about on
this newsgroup.

I called the station and asked about where they got the piece, and
to see if I could interest them in the April 2 VILLAGE VOICE article
about Biosphere.  The news guy didn't seem too interested, and mentioned
that ABC had done a very favorable piece on 20/20 last year.  He
said that they ran it verbatim from material supplied to them by
the NBC affiliate in Phoenix.

Did anyone else see this footage?  It ran in Seattle on 9/23/91.

Tad Cook
Seattle, WA

Phone: 206/527-4089
MCI Mail: 3288544
Telex: 6503288544 MCI UW  
USENET:...uw-beaver!sumax!amc-gw!ssc!tad

.//.

Tad Cook
Seattle, WA

Phone: 206/527-4089
MCI Mail: 3288544
Telex: 6503288544 MCI UW  
USENET:...uw-beaver!sumax!amc-gw!ssc!tad

   The bioshpere is not run by a cult, but a private company. The startup
money came from investors, mostly some Texas oil billionare, with the idea
to sell the patents on whatever inventions they come up with in the process.
I don't think they really expect to cover the entire 100 mil it took to
build the thing with the profits, but it should help offset the costs. They
plan to do some real science apparently.

Andrew Cooper                           |   "Experience is directly

All ideas herein are products of my     |    ruined."  -unknown
own deranged mind.

   Given the amount of research funded at one time or another by churches (e.g.
Catholic Colleges) I don't feel threatened by the new age trying to pick up the
bill for useful research, but, with their attitude I wonder if they can pull it
off...
                                                 Dan Ashlock

My own opinions; please add yours.

        Come to think of it, I still have to post the follow-up articles...
not to mention my last reply to Roy Stead.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano,                                Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

While this is important work, the methods that these people are using
lend credence to the cult notion.  Work like this should be open to
comments from the scientific community.

--

Field Robotics Center,          | necessary to the security of a free State,
Carnegie Mellon University      | the right of the people to keep and bear
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | Arms, shall not be infringed.
(412) 268-6557                  |

We have quite a bit of coverage of Biosphere here in AZ. In fact, it is now
the #2 or #3 tourist attraction in the state (Grand Canyon is #1). There
are several reasons to believe it is a cult:
  -it is run by one person, a multimillionaire who put up the money and
   is one of the "crew"
  -according to press reports I have read, it is of limited to zero
   scientific value.
  -there are a number of aspects of "gee whiz" about it:
    +They have a number of different "climate zones." Why do they do this
     rather than try for something more optimal?
    +They have an "ocean." Rather a large amount of mass for space travel.
    +They have quite a few animals that would be unnecessary for a space
     colony.
  -some press reports describe that attitudes of the group as more cult-like
   than scientific.

--
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)

"It would be thought a hard government that should tax its people one tenth
part..." B. Franklin   - Standard Disclaimer Applies -
 - - Support ALL of the bill of rights, INCLUDING the 2nd amendment! - -

In summary:  Many of your points imply that we already know how to build a
self-sustaining ecosystem.  But we don't, and the whole point of Biosphere is
to try to figure out how to do it.  It's not a scientific project: it's an
engineering project;  if some useful science gets done along the way, that's
fine, but it's not necessary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.

So it seems to me that the only two questions that need to be answered are:
Will there be any way to verify claims that the dome is actually sealed? and
Will the group actually provide detailed data about the setup?  If the answers
to both these questions are "Yes", I see nothing either wrong or unscientific
with the project.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.

Now, as to Biosphere II, the question that must be asked is NOT what
is the scientific value, but rather what is the application.  If the
intended use is for future extra-terrestrial application, they have
missed the mark by a country mile because of the enormous mass of
their system.  The cost of lifting one pound into LEO is about $1000.
Admittedly, this cost will drop.  However, the cost to lift a payload
to a designation outside of Erath gravitational field is significantly
higher, by at least an order of maginitude.  Just so you can see where
this is leading, taking a pound of water to the moon would cost
~$10,000.  A small swimming pool, 20'w x 40'l x (3'->6')d, has a
water weight of 224,640 pounds or a cost to the moon of 2.2 Billion
dollars.

Had this project been developed in the proper scientific fashion,
instead of being a cult idea, they would have had their ideas reviewed
by peer groups.  They would have been advised to think in realistic
terms.  Instead, they have simply developed a tourist attraction which
will yield little valuable scientific data.

--

Field Robotics Center,          | of certain rights, shall not be construed
Carnegie Mellon University      | to deny or disparage others retained by the
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | people.
(412) 268-6557                  |

Yes, these people seem a little weird.  But if you were going to be
locked into a building with the same 7 people for a two year period, I'd
think you would want to get along with the other people.  Maybe what we
are interpeting as clannishness is nothing more than the psychological
adaptation these people have gone through in preparation for being sealed
into a limited environment.

The project is funded by a single person.  Hurray!  If I were rich enough,
I'd love to do build something like Biosphere II.  Who needs to wait
for ump{*filter*} government and scientific committees to bicker over every
little stone and pencil that goes into a big project.  While I've been
trying to find a place that doesn't want *me* to pay them for recycling
my glass, these people have done something big.  

At worst we'll have a amazing building in Arizona to visit.  A few
more people might start thinking about environmental concerns.  And we
might even learn something. :-)

As for what the press reports ...ugh.  Remember, these are the people
who like to focus their cameras on any human {*filter*}stain they happen to
wander across.  They may talk about the horrible accident, but they're
zooming right in on the coagulating hemoglobin.  Newspeople love to
manipulate.  Given media mentality, they would think it more important
insinuate cultish behavior rather than say that Biosphere II was put
together by a few old hippies who stayed committed to the environment and
to each other.

In the meantime, write your objections down.  When the experiment fails
or when they open the doors two years from now, then hit them with
the questions.

-------...-------...-------...-------...-------...-------...-------...---

  (Chemistry Department)              As long as I don't want very much.
_______..._______..._______..._______..._______..._______...______...___

     I think the major reason for this lack in awareness in technology is
due to the fact that journalists are by nature liberal arts majors and
shun anything and everything related to science. It in turn is also a
reason JZ Knight, Helen Caldicott and other kooks can gain a sympathetic
ear.

     Quite simply, the reason the guy wasn't interested was because he was
intimidated.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Pierre Stromberg         Microsoft Corporation       Bellevue, Washington.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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      "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" - Karl Marx
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I find this apparent resistance to independent research very disturbing.
Lots of good science has been done in ba{*filter*}ts.  Sure, the big labs
have the equipment that ba{*filter*}ts don't, but they certainly have no
monopoly on ideas.  I find it encouraging that one man seems to have
had enough guts to say "What the hell! Let's find out!" when most
businessmen today, as always, seem most interested in lining their
own pockets. (ref. the CEO of Time-Life, who just laid off 600
employees while continuing to draw his own $78 000 000. annual
salary)

The really big question I have, though, is so what if it's not orthodox
science?  Say these people based their choice of included environments
on a coin toss, or the phase of the moon, or last week's winning
lottery numbers.  So what?  Does that imply an absolute certainty that
the project will fail?  And what if it does fail?  Who has been harmed?

As another poster pointed out, at least it's science (and you're
welcome to your opinion whether it's good or bad science) and it's in
the news.  I can't shake this feeling that some of the best ecologists
and environmental engineers of the next generation are, at this moment,
turning away from the TV and saying "Mommy, what's a biosphere?"

                                     -rocker

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.