How his calorimeter works 
Author Message
 How his calorimeter works

   Subject: How a calorimeter works (?)

=db "First the flames!  Jed Rothwell, for you to lecture me as to what is
=db proper experimental science and what is not is extremely presumptuous.
=db I have spent more hours doing experimental science and have made more
=db difficult and accurate measurements in a variety of settings than you
=db will ever even dream about.  I am, and have been for many years, a
=db working scientist.  You are not!"

   Stop the ad hominems and pick on someone else for a change, Mr. Blue.
   Tell us some more about your years as a "working scientist".  In hot
   fusion?  What have you done?

=db "Now on the the question at hand.  Jed starts with the assertion that
=db a calorimeter is like a rain gauge in which you collect the rain and
=db then look at the marks on the side to see what has collected.  That
=db is basically an incorrect analogy which is clear evidence that Jed
=db has no clue as to how a calorimeter actually is supposed to work.
=db The type of calorimeter under discussion is more properly to be
=db considered a transducer that converts an input, heat, into an output
=db signal which is temperature."

   Dick, you have not proven your latest model (and if your past
responses apply, nor will you probably do that).
  Also, it is more likely that what you are describing is a thermometer.
  Please show us your proof of this postulate that a calorimeter is actually a
  transducer:heat->temperature, either by reference or model.  

=db "The issue which I have attempted to
=db raise in my postings on this subject is how accurately does this
=db transduction take place.  I am not, at present, arguing about methods
=db used to record data or the instrumentation needed to measure electric
=db power or the accuracy of temperature probes, etc."

   No, but you will later, I suppose.  So how about now.
   How about some quantitation and explanation now.  We can add it to the
     table prepared (and posted) here which will be developed into
     a cold fusion FAQ. (anyone interested in contributing please e-mail,
     or post ---- no flames please unless they're quantitative    ;-)X

=db "I am asking that some consideration be given to the basic question
=db of how a calorimeter functions as a transducer between heat and
=db temperature.  In particular how does it "average" over heat inputs
=db that have a time dependence that is rapid on the scale set by the
=db time constant of the calorimeter.  My assertion is that linearity
=db is a key requirement if the simple conduction calorimeter is to
=db function as Jed assumes it will.  That is to say, the temperature
=db signal must be linearly related to the heat input."

  Please honor us with some proof of your assertion.
  Also linearity is not necessarily required to follow a parameter, is it?
.  In fact, some people measure
 palladium loading with conductivity and that is not even monotonic.
 [What kind of science do you do?]

  Best wishes.                         Mitchell Swartz



Sat, 02 Mar 1996 09:55:40 GMT
 How his calorimeter works


Fri, 19 Jun 1992 00:00:00 GMT
 How his calorimeter works

Quote:

>   Stop the ad hominems and pick on someone else for a change, Mr. Blue.

At least we can always count on Mr. Swartz for a leavening of humor here
in sci.physics.fusion.

Quote:
>   No, but you will later, I suppose.  So how about now.
>   How about some quantitation and explanation now.  We can add it to the
>     table prepared (and posted) here which will be developed into
>     a cold fusion FAQ. (anyone interested in contributing please e-mail,
>     or post ---- no flames please unless they're quantitative    ;-)X

What "quantitation" has Mr. Swartz ever provided?  I merely ask for
information.  I'd accept a quantitative explanation of how the Pd crystal
field affects deuterium nuclei; or a quantitative explanation of what the
nuclear products of "cold fusion" are and how they correlate with the claims
of excess heat; or even a quantitative correlation between the claims of
high-energy radiation and the claims of nuclear reaction products.

                                        Richard Schultz



Sat, 02 Mar 1996 23:38:01 GMT
 How his calorimeter works


Fri, 19 Jun 1992 00:00:00 GMT
 How his calorimeter works
The referenced article from Mitchell Swartz contains a line that
begins with a period, so some of you may not see it (according to
a previous posting by John Logajan).  It also contains a statement
that could explain a lot.  I'd quote it for you, but this stupid
Terminal screen can't handle vi with wrapped lines - oh, well,
someone else will quote it before the day is out.

The gist of it is that{*filter*} Blue described a calorimeter as a device
for transducing heat to temperature.  Swartz replied that that device
would be a thermometer.  Seems to me that the man has no understanding
of heat if he can make that statement.  But maybe he was so eager to
refute{*filter*} that he misspoke.  For you lurkers, a thermometer (or any
temperature sensor) converts temperature to something meaningful to a
person (eventually).  To be accurate, it must do so without adding or
removing any heat from the thing being measured.  A thermometer can't
measure heat.  Actually, a plain calorimeter can't measure heat that
is being continuously evolved.  You need a rate calorimeter, such as
Tom Droege has described, that measures the amount of energy required
to hold the calorimeter temperature constant while the unknown evolves
heat.  Integrating the known energy gives the amount of heat, which
can be compared to the integrated energy supplied to the electrodes.
Accuracy of the integration requires linear response of the integator
within the region of interest.

In truth, what I know about calorimeters I've learned here, and long
ago.  But I am intimately (and commercially) involved with the
measurement of temperature.

Bill



Sun, 03 Mar 1996 13:08:12 GMT
 How his calorimeter works
People on all sides of this discussion make mistatements or may lose
their cool (including myself in a rather intemperate moment).

It is much more refreshing to read the cool responses than the vitriol,
even my own. Fortunately for me, Dale Bass is thick-skinned enough to
take on all comers. I think he may even enjoy flame-baiting a few of us.

We are only human, and we are wrestling with the boundaries of what is
known. I often wonder where minds such as ours would play if we hadn't
found this cool park. Waterslides, rope-climbs, tinkertoys, all the really
neat stuff.

I loved it when Cmdr. Data was playing poker with Einstein, Newton and
Hawkings. Nice choice of playmates!



Tue, 05 Mar 1996 07:31:18 GMT
 
 [ 6 post ] 

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