> I was a surgical resident in NYC in 1974 and I had a cold. A friend,
> an audiologist, gave me a large green herbal capsule and told me to
> take it. But, is it FDA approved? I snorted. Just take it! she
> said. The next day my cold was gone. Incredible! Why wasnt this in
> my medical school curriculum? I wondered. That was the beginning of
> my slow fall off the edge of the earth.

> Now I have a holistic practice where we go for the least expensive,
> safest form of treatment, including nutrition, herbs, homeopathics, as
> well as pharmaceutical prescriptions. We use elegant tests that
> uncover the underlying causes of illness, instead of sweeping it
> under the drug. Chronic illness only exists for so many people
> because it is so lucrative for a few.

> I sincerely hope that, by supporting choice in healthcare, our
> President really means prevention of illness, treatment of causes
> instead of symptoms, and coverage of treatments which, although
> provided by licensed practitioners, are not paid for by insurance. At
> least please protect us from the fear of our state licensure boards,
> who have persecuted alternative practitioners for a hundred years. We
> need a new Flexner report* that focuses on assessment of the present
> system from a fiscal and humanitarian point of view, not just the
> scientific. Lets discover together what really works.
> I sincerely believe that we can provide much better healthcare, at a
> far lower cost, by addressing the reasons people get sick. We in
> medicine have been taught to first make a diagnosis. A patient
> presents with a constellation of symptoms, we search the history,
> examine the patient, order tests, review our past experience with such
> a presentation. Then we attach a diagnosis. This is how people get
> labeled. Then this diagnosis (read label) is attached to an ICD-9
> diagnostic code. So now a patients problem has been compressed into a
> three to five digit number. A clerk at the insurance company matches
> the diagnostic code to the requested tests or treatments. If they
> match, fine. If not - claim denied.

> Underlying causes frequently do not have an ICD-9 code. For example,
> yeast overgrowth (intestinal candidiasis) is not a reimbursable
> diagnosis, yet millions of people have it. Stress is not a
> reimbursable diagnosis, nor is environmental toxicity, or other real
> problems that people suffer with. Non-pharmaceutical treatments -
> nutrition, herbs, acupuncture, homeopathy, - are not usually paid by
> insurance. IV therapies that detoxify the body, or introduce essential
> nutrients in patients who are nutritionally depleted are not paid.

> We need to encourage, not discourage, non-toxic natural supportive
> treatment (either instead of, or along with conventional treatments)
> of everything from heart disease to cancer. Coverage, tax credits,
> other creative incentives should be used to encourage inexpensive
> preventive and supportive forms of treatment. This will rapidly bring
> down health care expenditures by thwarting life-threatening events
> that are very costly. These integrative treatments often halt disease
> progression. They save lives without making people sick. There is a
> huge body of published literature to support this proposition, but not
> in the medical literature. Its published in nutrition journals,
> herbal and energy medicine literature. Lets look at that, as well as
> the pharma-dominated medical literature.

> I have high hopes that the President is listening. If you have an
> opinion to register on this subject, please comment on this post. Send

> * The Flexner Report was commissioned by the Rockefeller Foundation
> and completed in 1913 by Abraham Flexner, an educator. It was the
> foundation of evidence-based medicine that led to the dismantling of
> alternative health care in the US.

> http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dailyloaf/2009/05/22/choice-in-healt...

> > Choice in healthcare- including alternative medicine practices
> > May 22, 2009 at 5:00 pm by Carol Roberts

> > I was a surgical resident in NYC in 1974 and I had a cold. A friend,
> > an audiologist, gave me a large green herbal capsule and told me to
> > take it. But, is it FDA approved? I snorted. Just take it! she
> > said. The next day my cold was gone. Incredible! Why wasnt this in
> > my medical school curriculum? I wondered. That was the beginning of
> > my slow fall off the edge of the earth.

> > Now I have a holistic practice where we go for the least expensive,
> > safest form of treatment, including nutrition, herbs, homeopathics, as
> > well as pharmaceutical prescriptions. We use elegant tests that
> > uncover the underlying causes of illness, instead of sweeping it
> > under the drug. Chronic illness only exists for so many people
> > because it is so lucrative for a few.

> > I sincerely hope that, by supporting choice in healthcare, our
> > President really means prevention of illness, treatment of causes
> > instead of symptoms, and coverage of treatments which, although
> > provided by licensed practitioners, are not paid for by insurance. At
> > least please protect us from the fear of our state licensure boards,
> > who have persecuted alternative practitioners for a hundred years. We
> > need a new Flexner report* that focuses on assessment of the present
> > system from a fiscal and humanitarian point of view, not just the
> > scientific. Lets discover together what really works.
> > I sincerely believe that we can provide much better healthcare, at a
> > far lower cost, by addressing the reasons people get sick. We in
> > medicine have been taught to first make a diagnosis. A patient
> > presents with a constellation of symptoms, we search the history,
> > examine the patient, order tests, review our past experience with such
> > a presentation. Then we attach a diagnosis. This is how people get
> > labeled. Then this diagnosis (read label) is attached to an ICD-9
> > diagnostic code. So now a patients problem has been compressed into a
> > three to five digit number. A clerk at the insurance company matches
> > the diagnostic code to the requested tests or treatments. If they
> > match, fine. If not - claim denied.

> > Underlying causes frequently do not have an ICD-9 code. For example,
> > yeast overgrowth (intestinal candidiasis) is not a reimbursable
> > diagnosis, yet millions of people have it. Stress is not a
> > reimbursable diagnosis, nor is environmental toxicity, or other real
> > problems that people suffer with. Non-pharmaceutical treatments -
> > nutrition, herbs, acupuncture, homeopathy, - are not usually paid by
> > insurance. IV therapies that detoxify the body, or introduce essential
> > nutrients in patients who are nutritionally depleted are not paid.

> > We need to encourage, not discourage, non-toxic natural supportive
> > treatment (either instead of, or along with conventional treatments)
> > of everything from heart disease to cancer. Coverage, tax credits,
> > other creative incentives should be used to encourage inexpensive
> > preventive and supportive forms of treatment. This will rapidly bring
> > down health care expenditures by thwarting life-threatening events
> > that are very costly. These integrative treatments often halt disease
> > progression. They save lives without making people sick. There is a
> > huge body of published literature to support this proposition, but not
> > in the medical literature. Its published in nutrition journals,
> > herbal and energy medicine literature. Lets look at that, as well as
> > the pharma-dominated medical literature.

> > I have high hopes that the President is listening. If you have an
> > opinion to register on this subject, please comment on this post. Send

> > * The Flexner Report was commissioned by the Rockefeller Foundation
> > and completed in 1913 by Abraham Flexner, an educator. It was the
> > foundation of evidence-based medicine that led to the dismantling of
> > alternative health care in the US.

> > http://www.***.com/

> There you have it good post.

> Citizen Jimserac- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> > Choice in healthcare- including alternative medicine practices
> > May 22, 2009 at 5:00 pm by Carol Roberts

> > I was a surgical resident in NYC in 1974 and I had a cold. A friend,
> > an audiologist, gave me a large green herbal capsule and told me to
> > take it. But, is it FDA approved? I snorted. Just take it! she
> > said. The next day my cold was gone. Incredible! Why wasn t this in
> > my medical school curriculum? I wondered. That was the beginning of
> > my slow fall off the edge of the earth.

> > Now I have a holistic practice where we go for the least expensive,
> > safest form of treatment, including nutrition, herbs, homeopathics, as
> > well as pharmaceutical prescriptions. We use elegant tests that
> > uncover the underlying causes of illness, instead of sweeping it
> > under the drug . Chronic illness only exists for so many people
> > because it is so lucrative for a few.

> > I sincerely hope that, by supporting choice in healthcare, our
> > President really means prevention of illness, treatment of causes
> > instead of symptoms, and coverage of treatments which, although
> > provided by licensed practitioners, are not paid for by insurance. At
> > least please protect us from the fear of our state licensure boards,
> > who have persecuted alternative practitioners for a hundred years. We
> > need a new Flexner report* that focuses on assessment of the present
> > system from a fiscal and humanitarian point of view, not just the
> > scientific . Let s discover together what really works.
> > I sincerely believe that we can provide much better healthcare, at a
> > far lower cost, by addressing the reasons people get sick. We in
> > medicine have been taught to first make a diagnosis. A patient
> > presents with a constellation of symptoms, we search the history,
> > examine the patient, order tests, review our past experience with such
> > a presentation. Then we attach a diagnosis. This is how people get
> > labeled. Then this diagnosis (read label) is attached to an ICD-9
> > diagnostic code. So now a patient s problem has been compressed into a
> > three to five digit number. A clerk at the insurance company matches
> > the diagnostic code to the requested tests or treatments. If they
> > match, fine. If not - claim denied.

> > Underlying causes frequently do not have an ICD-9 code. For example,
> > yeast overgrowth (intestinal candidiasis) is not a reimbursable
> > diagnosis, yet millions of people have it. Stress is not a
> > reimbursable diagnosis, nor is environmental toxicity, or other real
> > problems that people suffer with. Non-pharmaceutical treatments -
> > nutrition, herbs, acupuncture, homeopathy, - are not usually paid by
> > insurance. IV therapies that detoxify the body, or introduce essential
> > nutrients in patients who are nutritionally depleted are not paid.

> > We need to encourage, not discourage, non-toxic natural supportive
> > treatment (either instead of, or along with conventional treatments)
> > of everything from heart disease to cancer. Coverage, tax credits,
> > other creative incentives should be used to encourage inexpensive
> > preventive and supportive forms of treatment. This will rapidly bring
> > down health care expenditures by thwarting life-threatening events
> > that are very costly. These integrative treatments often halt disease
> > progression. They save lives without making people sick. There is a
> > huge body of published literature to support this proposition, but not
> > in the medical literature. It s published in nutrition journals,
> > herbal and energy medicine literature. Let s look at that, as well as
> > the pharma-dominated medical literature.

> > I have high hopes that the President is listening. If you have an
> > opinion to register on this subject, please comment on this post. Send

> > * The Flexner Report was commissioned by the Rockefeller Foundation
> > and completed in 1913 by Abraham Flexner, an educator. It was the
> > foundation of evidence-based medicine that led to the dismantling of
> > alternative health care in the US.

> > http://www.***.com/

> There you have it good post.

> Citizen Jimserac- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> > > Choice in healthcare- including alternative medicine practices
> > > May 22, 2009 at 5:00 pm by Carol Roberts

> > > I was a surgical resident in NYC in 1974 and I had a cold. A friend,
> > > an audiologist, gave me a large green herbal capsule and told me to
> > > take it. But, is it FDA approved? I snorted. Just take it! she
> > > said. The next day my cold was gone. Incredible! Why wasnt this in
> > > my medical school curriculum? I wondered. That was the beginning of
> > > my slow fall off the edge of the earth.

> > > Now I have a holistic practice where we go for the least expensive,
> > > safest form of treatment, including nutrition, herbs, homeopathics, as
> > > well as pharmaceutical prescriptions. We use elegant tests that
> > > uncover the underlying causes of illness, instead of sweeping it
> > > under the drug. Chronic illness only exists for so many people
> > > because it is so lucrative for a few.

> > > I sincerely hope that, by supporting choice in healthcare, our
> > > President really means prevention of illness, treatment of causes
> > > instead of symptoms, and coverage of treatments which, although
> > > provided by licensed practitioners, are not paid for by insurance. At
> > > least please protect us from the fear of our state licensure boards,
> > > who have persecuted alternative practitioners for a hundred years. We
> > > need a new Flexner report* that focuses on assessment of the present
> > > system from a fiscal and humanitarian point of view, not just the
> > > scientific. Lets discover together what really works.
> > > I sincerely believe that we can provide much better healthcare, at a
> > > far lower cost, by addressing the reasons people get sick. We in
> > > medicine have been taught to first make a diagnosis. A patient
> > > presents with a constellation of symptoms, we search the history,
> > > examine the patient, order tests, review our past experience with such
> > > a presentation. Then we attach a diagnosis. This is how people get
> > > labeled. Then this diagnosis (read label) is attached to an ICD-9
> > > diagnostic code. So now a patients problem has been compressed into a
> > > three to five digit number. A clerk at the insurance company matches
> > > the diagnostic code to the requested tests or treatments. If they
> > > match, fine. If not - claim denied.

> > > Underlying causes frequently do not have an ICD-9 code. For example,
> > > yeast overgrowth (intestinal candidiasis) is not a reimbursable
> > > diagnosis, yet millions of people have it. Stress is not a
> > > reimbursable diagnosis, nor is environmental toxicity, or other real
> > > problems that people suffer with. Non-pharmaceutical treatments -
> > > nutrition, herbs, acupuncture, homeopathy, - are not usually paid by
> > > insurance. IV therapies that detoxify the body, or introduce essential
> > > nutrients in patients who are nutritionally depleted are not paid.

> > > We need to encourage, not discourage, non-toxic natural supportive
> > > treatment (either instead of, or along with conventional treatments)
> > > of everything from heart disease to cancer. Coverage, tax credits,
> > > other creative incentives should be used to encourage inexpensive
> > > preventive and supportive forms of treatment. This will rapidly bring
> > > down health care expenditures by thwarting life-threatening events
> > > that are very costly. These integrative treatments often halt disease
> > > progression. They save lives without making people sick. There is a
> > > huge body of published literature to support this proposition, but not
> > > in the medical literature. Its published in nutrition journals,
> > > herbal and energy medicine literature. Lets look at that, as well as
> > > the pharma-dominated medical literature.

> > > I have high hopes that the President is listening. If you have an
> > > opinion to register on this subject, please comment on this post. Send

> > > * The Flexner Report was commissioned by the Rockefeller Foundation
> > > and completed in 1913 by Abraham Flexner, an educator. It was the
> > > foundation of evidence-based medicine that led to the dismantling of
> > > alternative health care in the US.

> > > http://www.***.com/

> > There you have it good post.

> > Citizen Jimserac- Hide quoted text -

> > - Show quoted text -

> The medical paradigm being proposed is already known. ?It is a little
> known medical paradign of drugless doctors practicing Orthopathy. ?To
> the orthopath there are no diseases, only dis-ease. ?To the orthopath
> all {*filter*} are poisons, and one simply cannot poison the sick into
> becoming well. ?To the orthopath, contagion is a lie. ?The germ and
> viral theory of disease is a grand deceit. ?You cannot give another
> human a cold or flu any more than you can give them cancer.

> DrCee
> You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.

> > > > Choice in healthcare- including alternative medicine practices
> > > > May 22, 2009 at 5:00 pm by Carol Roberts

> > > > I was a surgical resident in NYC in 1974 and I had a cold. A friend,
> > > > an audiologist, gave me a large green herbal capsule and told me to
> > > > take it. But, is it FDA approved? I snorted. Just take it! she
> > > > said. The next day my cold was gone. Incredible! Why wasnt this in
> > > > my medical school curriculum? I wondered. That was the beginning of
> > > > my slow fall off the edge of the earth.

> > > > Now I have a holistic practice where we go for the least expensive,
> > > > safest form of treatment, including nutrition, herbs, homeopathics, as
> > > > well as pharmaceutical prescriptions. We use elegant tests that
> > > > uncover the underlying causes of illness, instead of sweeping it
> > > > under the drug. Chronic illness only exists for so many people
> > > > because it is so lucrative for a few.

> > > > I sincerely hope that, by supporting choice in healthcare, our
> > > > President really means prevention of illness, treatment of causes
> > > > instead of symptoms, and coverage of treatments which, although
> > > > provided by licensed practitioners, are not paid for by insurance. At
> > > > least please protect us from the fear of our state licensure boards,
> > > > who have persecuted alternative practitioners for a hundred years. We
> > > > need a new Flexner report* that focuses on assessment of the present
> > > > system from a fiscal and humanitarian point of view, not just the
> > > > scientific. Lets discover together what really works.
> > > > I sincerely believe that we can provide much better healthcare, at a
> > > > far lower cost, by addressing the reasons people get sick. We in
> > > > medicine have been taught to first make a diagnosis. A patient
> > > > presents with a constellation of symptoms, we search the history,
> > > > examine the patient, order tests, review our past experience with such
> > > > a presentation. Then we attach a diagnosis. This is how people get
> > > > labeled. Then this diagnosis (read label) is attached to an ICD-9
> > > > diagnostic code. So now a patients problem has been compressed into a
> > > > three to five digit number. A clerk at the insurance company matches
> > > > the diagnostic code to the requested tests or treatments. If they
> > > > match, fine. If not - claim denied.

> > > > Underlying causes frequently do not have an ICD-9 code. For example,
> > > > yeast overgrowth (intestinal candidiasis) is not a reimbursable
> > > > diagnosis, yet millions of people have it. Stress is not a
> > > > reimbursable diagnosis, nor is environmental toxicity, or other real
> > > > problems that people suffer with. Non-pharmaceutical treatments -
> > > > nutrition, herbs, acupuncture, homeopathy, - are not usually paid by
> > > > insurance. IV therapies that detoxify the body, or introduce essential
> > > > nutrients in patients who are nutritionally depleted are not paid.

> > > > We need to encourage, not discourage, non-toxic natural supportive
> > > > treatment (either instead of, or along with conventional treatments)
> > > > of everything from heart disease to cancer. Coverage, tax credits,
> > > > other creative incentives should be used to encourage inexpensive
> > > > preventive and supportive forms of treatment. This will rapidly bring
> > > > down health care expenditures by thwarting life-threatening events
> > > > that are very costly. These integrative treatments often halt disease
> > > > progression. They save lives without making people sick. There is a
> > > > huge body of published literature to support this proposition, but not
> > > > in the medical literature. Its published in nutrition journals,
> > > > herbal and energy medicine literature. Lets look at that, as well as
> > > > the pharma-dominated medical literature.

> > > > I have high hopes that the President is listening. If you have an
> > > > opinion to register on this subject, please comment on this post. Send

> > > > * The Flexner Report was commissioned by the Rockefeller Foundation
> > > > and completed in 1913 by Abraham Flexner, an educator. It was the
> > > > foundation of evidence-based medicine that led to the dismantling of
> > > > alternative health care in the US.

> > > > http://www.***.com/

> > > There you have it good post.

> > > Citizen Jimserac- Hide quoted text -

> > > - Show quoted text -

> > The medical paradigm being proposed is already known. ?It is a little
> > known medical paradign of drugless doctors practicing Orthopathy. ?To
> > the orthopath there are no diseases, only dis-ease. ?To the orthopath
> > all {*filter*} are poisons, and one simply cannot poison the sick into
> > becoming well. ?To the orthopath, contagion is a lie. ?The germ and
> > viral theory of disease is a grand deceit. ?You cannot give another
> > human a cold or flu any more than you can give them cancer.

> > DrCee
> > You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.

> Contextual irrelevancy.

> The original posters comment pertained to the necessity of medical
> reform.

> The utilization of Herbs, Nutrition and Homeopathy CANNOT ?be
> sweepingly dismissed under the rubric of "Orthopathy" as they are
> substantially different treatment modalities each with its own
> theories which may, or may not support modern germ theory.

> Your comments on the necessity of medical reform would be of interest
> - otherwise, may I suggest you start a new thread on "Orthopathy".

> Citizen Jimserac- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

> > > > > Choice in healthcare- including alternative medicine practices
> > > > > May 22, 2009 at 5:00 pm by Carol Roberts

> > > > > I was a surgical resident in NYC in 1974 and I had a cold. A friend,
> > > > > an audiologist, gave me a large green herbal capsule and told me to
> > > > > take it. But, is it FDA approved? I snorted. Just take it! she
> > > > > said. The next day my cold was gone. Incredible! Why wasnt this in
> > > > > my medical school curriculum? I wondered. That was the beginning of
> > > > > my slow fall off the edge of the earth.

> > > > > Now I have a holistic practice where we go for the least expensive,
> > > > > safest form of treatment, including nutrition, herbs, homeopathics, as
> > > > > well as pharmaceutical prescriptions. We use elegant tests that
> > > > > uncover the underlying causes of illness, instead of sweeping it
> > > > > under the drug. Chronic illness only exists for so many people
> > > > > because it is so lucrative for a few.

> > > > > I sincerely hope that, by supporting choice in healthcare, our
> > > > > President really means prevention of illness, treatment of causes
> > > > > instead of symptoms, and coverage of treatments which, although
> > > > > provided by licensed practitioners, are not paid for by insurance. At
> > > > > least please protect us from the fear of our state licensure boards,
> > > > > who have persecuted alternative practitioners for a hundred years. We
> > > > > need a new Flexner report* that focuses on assessment of the present
> > > > > system from a fiscal and humanitarian point of view, not just the
> > > > > scientific. Lets discover together what really works.
> > > > > I sincerely believe that we can provide much better healthcare, at a
> > > > > far lower cost, by addressing the reasons people get sick. We in
> > > > > medicine have been taught to first make a diagnosis. A patient
> > > > > presents with a constellation of symptoms, we search the history,
> > > > > examine the patient, order tests, review our past experience with such
> > > > > a presentation. Then we attach a diagnosis. This is how people get
> > > > > labeled. Then this diagnosis (read label) is attached to an ICD-9
> > > > > diagnostic code. So now a patients problem has been compressed into a
> > > > > three to five digit number. A clerk at the insurance company matches
> > > > > the diagnostic code to the requested tests or treatments. If they
> > > > > match, fine. If not - claim denied.

> > > > > Underlying causes frequently do not have an ICD-9 code. For example,
> > > > > yeast overgrowth (intestinal candidiasis) is not a reimbursable
> > > > > diagnosis, yet millions of people have it. Stress is not a
> > > > > reimbursable diagnosis, nor is environmental toxicity, or other real
> > > > > problems that people suffer with. Non-pharmaceutical treatments -
> > > > > nutrition, herbs, acupuncture, homeopathy, - are not usually paid by
> > > > > insurance. IV therapies that detoxify the body, or introduce essential
> > > > > nutrients in patients who are nutritionally depleted are not paid.

> > > > > We need to encourage, not discourage, non-toxic natural supportive
> > > > > treatment (either instead of, or along with conventional treatments)
> > > > > of everything from heart disease to cancer. Coverage, tax credits,
> > > > > other creative incentives should be used to encourage inexpensive
> > > > > preventive and supportive forms of treatment. This will rapidly bring
> > > > > down health care expenditures by thwarting life-threatening events
> > > > > that are very costly. These integrative treatments often halt disease
> > > > > progression. They save lives without making people sick. There is a
> > > > > huge body of published literature to support this proposition, but not
> > > > > in the medical literature. Its published in nutrition journals,
> > > > > herbal and energy medicine literature. Lets look at that, as well as
> > > > > the pharma-dominated medical literature.

> > > > > I have high hopes that the President is listening. If you have an
> > > > > opinion to register on this subject, please comment on this post. Send

> > > > > * The Flexner Report was commissioned by the Rockefeller Foundation
> > > > > and completed in 1913 by Abraham Flexner, an educator. It was the
> > > > > foundation of evidence-based medicine that led to the dismantling of
> > > > > alternative health care in the US.

> > > > > http://www.***.com/

> > > > There you have it good post.

> > > > Citizen Jimserac- Hide quoted text -

> > > > - Show quoted text -

> > > The medical paradigm being proposed is already known. ?It is a little
> > > known medical paradign of drugless doctors practicing Orthopathy. ?To
> > > the orthopath there are no diseases, only dis-ease. ?To the orthopath
> > > all {*filter*} are poisons, and one simply cannot poison the sick into
> > > becoming well. ?To the orthopath, contagion is a lie. ?The germ and
> > > viral theory of disease is a grand deceit. ?You cannot give another
> > > human a cold or flu any more than you can give them cancer.

> > > DrCee
> > > You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.

> > Contextual irrelevancy.

> > The original posters comment pertained to the necessity of medical
> > reform.

> > The utilization of Herbs, Nutrition and Homeopathy CANNOT ?be
> > sweepingly dismissed under the rubric of "Orthopathy" as they are
> > substantially different treatment modalities each with its own
> > theories which may, or may not support modern germ theory.

> > Your comments on the necessity of medical reform would be of interest
> > - otherwise, may I suggest you start a new thread on "Orthopathy".

> > Citizen Jimserac- Hide quoted text -

> > - Show quoted text -

> I am not interested in "reforming" a medical lie. ?Expose the lies,
> and begin anew with the truth.
> Allopathy is a medical monopoly. ?It is a medical deceit. ?We must get
> rid of the lie altogether.
> A. Bechamp proved beyond any doubt that the germ/viral theory of
> disease was a deceit and scientifically and medically false. ?That was
> circa 1870.

> DrCee
> You cannot secure nor restore health with pus or poisons.- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -