Remember the fundamental rule of toxicology!!! 
Author Message
 Remember the fundamental rule of toxicology!!!

Anything can be toxic if taken in large enough amounts at a high enough
rate.

Even pure water can be toxic if you drank too much (upset electrolyte
balance in body fatally); however, you would probably die of bloating
yourself first (or the pain which maybe associated with it).

The toxicity lies in the amount of substance taken, which of course
varies widely from substance to substance, and also the route.  In fact,
poisonous substances have thearepeutic (how da hell do ya spell dis
woid) benefits when taken slightly below the amount at which
death/damage would occur.  Thearepeutic lies between no-effect to
poisonous.
To complicate things more, interaction between substances and
physiological states will affect response to certain amounts of a
substance (you may lower or higher the "death dose" of substances by
specific combinations)

Vitamin A is one of the most toxic substances to OD on (given the fact
that it is fat soluble, and the body retains it longer, more potential
for accumulation); however, it is essential to human life below toxic
levels (far below toxic levels will be adequate).  This vitamin gets
attention when discussing oversupplementation because the amount needed
to be taken to get toxic effects is relatively not as high as other
vitamins.  Polar Bear liver is toxic to humans because of its extremely
high Vitamin A content.  Cases have been reported in the past (way back)
where explorers to the North Pole have died eating a small portion of
this.
Always be weary and follow recommendations as to not oversupplement or
overeat fat soluble vitamins.

Not to worry about dying from toxicity of eating standard, common, or
somewhat common foods.  Usually you will get sick from gluttony before
getting to this point.  Just beware of Fat Soluble Vitamin
Supplementation -- follow instructions.  You will experience minor sick
symptoms far before reaching fatal levels.  Water Solubles -- any excess
usually pee'ed out quickly.

Remember when discussing toxicity of certain elements, metals,
nutrients, whatever -- that the amount taken counts -- it is not
entirely correct to say an element like Fluoride is toxic and thats it.
Remember also that very minute amounts of one substance can kill
compared to very large amounts of another substance.  Example, a
microscopic amount of C botulinum toxin can be lethal.

To eliminate a substance like Fluoride TOTALLY from a person diet -- the
person may "inhale" enough of his/her requirement anyway -- may kill
that person.  Enough said, I know I may cause some new neophobes to be
born out there.  Just remember to keep things in perspective -- and the
beat-to-death moderation philosophy.



Fri, 25 Aug 2000 03:00:00 GMT
 Remember the fundamental rule of toxicology!!!


Fri, 19 Jun 1992 00:00:00 GMT
 Remember the fundamental rule of toxicology!!!

One should not experiment by far exceeding the RDAs for nutrients or
whatever without consulting a qualified health or nutrition professional
first!!!  These people have access to resources indicating MINIMUM
AMOUNTS OF MANY NUTRIENTS/SUBSTANCES WHICH CAUSE TOXIC EFFECTS!!!  You
may also have an underlying condition, either known or unknown, which
may make you even more sensitive to certain toxicities.



Fri, 25 Aug 2000 03:00:00 GMT
 Remember the fundamental rule of toxicology!!!

Where do they get these resources?

        WHAT ARE THE MINIMUM AMOUNTS OF MANY NUTRIENTS/SUBSTANCES WHICH
CAUSE TOXIC EFFECTS!?!?    This has been discussed here constantly over
the years and answers vary even amoungst professionals.   Who to believe?

        The RDAs of Vitamin C and E are pitifully low;  Many posters here
(including myself) regularly take 10 to 50 times the RDA for these
vitamins.   In fact, go to your local drug store, and find the smallest
sized vitamin C tablet you can find.  WHAT?!?  500mg!?  That's many times
the RDA for vitamin C!  Must be toxic!  

        I just drank a can of carrot juice - guess what?!?  There's 500%
of the RDA for Vitamin A (beta carotine) in it!   I guess my fingernails
are going to fall off now.

        The Recommended Daily Allowance for vitamins is an antiquated
standard meant to keep people from suffering acute malnutrition of certain
vitamins, and is the lowest amount necessary.  Might as well be called the
Minimum Recommended Daily Intake....And in fact it might be, as soon as
the research into RDI (Recommended Daily Intake) is completed.

        ...Rodney

: One should not experiment by far exceeding the RDAs for nutrients or
: whatever without consulting a qualified health or nutrition professional
: first!!!  These people have access to resources indicating MINIMUM
: AMOUNTS OF MANY NUTRIENTS/SUBSTANCES WHICH CAUSE TOXIC EFFECTS!!!  You
: may also have an underlying condition, either known or unknown, which
: may make you even more sensitive to certain toxicities.



Sat, 26 Aug 2000 03:00:00 GMT
 Remember the fundamental rule of toxicology!!!

Quote:

> Where do they get these resources?

>         WHAT ARE THE MINIMUM AMOUNTS OF MANY NUTRIENTS/SUBSTANCES WHICH
> CAUSE TOXIC EFFECTS!?!?    This has been discussed here constantly over
> the years and answers vary even amoungst professionals.   Who to believe?

What you say is true for many nutrients, especially minerals.  Nutrition has a
long way to go get answers to too many of these mysteries.

Quote:
>         The RDAs of Vitamin C and E are pitifully low;  Many posters here
> (including myself) regularly take 10 to 50 times the RDA for these
> vitamins.   In fact, go to your local drug store, and find the smallest
> sized vitamin C tablet you can find.  WHAT?!?  500mg!?  That's many times
> the RDA for vitamin C!  Must be toxic!

Remember that Vitamin see is water soluble.  Any excess that the body doesn't
need (at the time) is pee'ed out pretty quickly!I myself experiment taking way
more Vitamin C that the RDA when I feel I am coming down with the flu -- and I
firmly believe it do lessen the severity of the symptoms (up to 3g/day);
however, it is a risk I am willing to take.  I do not think I will die but may
get nausea or something (never happened to me yet).  It is about risks you are
willing to take -- with the fat souble vitamins (which tend to accumulate in
the fat stores in your body), I do not take the risks of far exceeding the
RDA, especially with Vitamin A (I will tell you about the story behind
Beta-Carotene below -- this has a third factor involved).  I perceive the risk
of taking doses of Vitamin A which far exceed the RDA the same taking a swig
of gasoline (given that I have no problems with my body chemistry).  There
have been cases reported -- one of which is reverse scurvy suffered by a
football team whose coach gave them humungous doses of Vitamin C in hopes of
it enhancing performance.

Quote:
>         I just drank a can of carrot juice - guess what?!?  There's 500%
> of the RDA for Vitamin A (beta carotine) in it!

Believe it or not, the worst effect you probably get from drinking large doses
of carrot juice (which contains beta carotene) is orange, tanned pigmented
skin.  Why?  Is not beta carotene a structure which is made out of two
structures of Vitamin A!!!!??Yes, it is??  There is a third factor in this
case.  Beta-Carotene is relatively non-toxic in high doses compared to Vitamin
A.  To technical inaccuracy for the sake of simplicity,  Beta Carotene is a
"stable", (ie. has little or no potential to go on a rampage when in great
numbers and "damage" key parts of your body) structure.  Whatever your body
does not need to convert to Vitamin A, gets stored for later on if the body
runs low on Vitamin A "on a rainy day" (when the diet is not providing enough
to match elimination via urine, fecal, etc. routes).  One common storage site
is the subcutaneous (near surface) fat under the skin (why the orange color
when huge amounts of Carot Juice are drunk.  Beta-Carotene has an orange color
responsible for the orange color of carrots (I think!).  As you may already
know, Beta Carotene is a good anti-oxidant, because in order for the structure
to break apart into two Vit A structures it needs to "take electron".  Hope
you know what electrons are!  If not sorry about making this too cryptic!
Some organic chemist may read this and want to assasinate me, because their
agreed upon models of an "oxidation" involves taking a hydrogen ion (proton).
Either way the end result is more electrons in the Beta Carotene --> Vit A
system.  This is why Beta Carotene is called an "anti-oxidant".  It takes
electrons from "free radicals" (a good name that describes the scientific
state of these particles as well as what they can do to the order and
operation of your body -- like politics, cause {*filter*} and war!).  Think of
it as a "Beta-Carotene" Self Sacrifice in which two Vitamin A structures
results.

Quote:
> I guess my fingernails are going to fall off now.

No, I do not think they would.  But just keep drinking carrot juice (if you
can afford the cost for the amount you would have to take), far beyond
fullness throughout the whole day, day after day, and see what happens or how
far you can get before you start to notice strange body reactions.  And report
back to me to record.  You may probably vomit or feel incredibly uncomfortable
if you drink too much in too little period of time.  Just cut down before the
point of feeling sick.  Gradually take in large amounts throughout the day.
Be sure to record how much you drank from one hour to the next and the hour
you start and finish drinking when you notice a strange effect (besides nausea
from overfullness, vomiting from overfullness, and incredibly foul smelling
flatulence).  Record in detail the symptoms.  Be aware though, you may never
want to look at carrot juice again.. . . . .Sorry about being so sarcastic, I
am just joking ;).

Sorry about not stating the beta-carotene exception-to-the-rule in my first
post.  I was too lazy to type it.  Sloth can be a deadly sin!

Quote:

>         The Recommended Daily Allowance for vitamins is an antiquated
> standard meant to keep people from suffering acute malnutrition of certain
> vitamins, and is the lowest amount necessary.  Might as well be called the
> Minimum Recommended Daily Intake....And in fact it might be, as soon as
> the research into RDI (Recommended Daily Intake) is completed.

>         ...Rodney

This seems to be half true; however, my nutrition knowledge is a couple of
years out of date (hopefully not more or I will not be too impressed with the
universities I went too!).  Remember that RDAs are based on that boring (for
some) statistical bell curve (the normal distribution) and are "supposed" to
cover 95% of the most "critical group" population.  It is a conservative
philosophy taken to minimize risk as much as possible from "undernourishment"
of people in the population who requirements are quite high compared to the
rest of the population (not enough to be shoved into a metabolic category
though) and from "toxicity" of people in the pop who requirements are low
compared to the rest and maybe a bit more sensitive (again, not enough to be
shoved into a metabolic disorder category though).   Maybe a range should be
developed by researchers with different categories on a scale generally like:
(amount which you should not go below in your daily diet; amount which more
than likely is low, maybe you should take a higher amount; this is the average
amount we feel people must aim for; amount which may be a bit too high for
some, beware of ill-feeling and symptoms which may indicate toxicity; amount
which we recommend STRONGLY not to go over unless otherwise directed by health
professional for a health/metabolic condition).

Sorry, I do not know what the word antiquated means and am too lazy to look it
up >:}

Quote:

> : One should not experiment by far exceeding the RDAs for nutrients or
> : whatever without consulting a qualified health or nutrition professional
> : first!!!  These people have access to resources indicating MINIMUM
> : AMOUNTS OF MANY NUTRIENTS/SUBSTANCES WHICH CAUSE TOXIC EFFECTS!!!  You
> : may also have an underlying condition, either known or unknown, which
> : may make you even more sensitive to certain toxicities.



Sat, 26 Aug 2000 03:00:00 GMT
 Remember the fundamental rule of toxicology!!!

Quote:

>   As you may already know, Beta Carotene is a good anti-oxidant,
> because in order for the structure to break apart into two Vit A
> structures it needs to "take electron".  Hope you know what electrons
> are!  If not sorry about making this too cryptic!  Some organic
> chemist may read this and want to assasinate me, because their agreed
> upon models of an "oxidation" involves taking a hydrogen ion
> (proton).  Either way the end result is more electrons in the Beta
> Carotene --> Vit A system.  This is why Beta Carotene is called an
> "anti-oxidant".  It takes electrons from "free radicals" (a good name
> that describes the scientific state of these particles as well as what
> they can do to the order and  operation of your body -- like politics,
> cause {*filter*} and war!).  Think of it as a "Beta-Carotene" Self
> Sacrifice in which two Vitamin A structures results.

Mistake in previous post:  Correction is this:

Some organic chemist may read this and want to assasinate me, because
their agreed upon models of an "oxidation" involves taking a hydrogen
ion (proton) [note in this case the beta-Carotene structure LOSES a
proton (hydrogen ion) -- you may view this as gaining an electron even
though the Beta-Carotene structure did not gain any electrons, losing a
proton cause it now to have more electrons than proton in terms of
ratios only -- their is usually a lot more electrons in a structure than
hydrogens anyway]  Either way the end result is more electrons [more
correctly a higher ratio of electrons to protons] in the Beta Carotene
-->Vit A system.  This is way Beta Carotene is know as an
"anti-oxidant".  It GIVES HYDROGENS [PROTONS] TO "free radicals" --
which are not negative ions, but contain an "unmated" electron exposed
to the outside ready to "steal" an electron (with Hydrogen perhaps) from
neighbouring structures.

Just felt a picky need to be more technically accurate at the risk of
losing simplicity and causing confusion to those not familiar with
chemistry, biochemistry or the like! :(



Sat, 26 Aug 2000 03:00:00 GMT
 Remember the fundamental rule of toxicology!!!

Quote:

>    The Recommended Daily Allowance for vitamins is an antiquated
>standard meant to keep people from suffering acute malnutrition of certain
>vitamins, and is the lowest amount necessary.  Might as well be called the
>Minimum Recommended Daily Intake....And in fact it might be, as soon as
>the research into RDI (Recommended Daily Intake) is completed.

It used to be called the MDR (Minimum Daily Requirement) when I
was growing up.  I think they changed it because the MDR was
supposed to be the minimum not to get deficiency symptoms,
and the RDA more intended for reasonable health.

--

                "There's a seeker born every minute."



Sun, 27 Aug 2000 03:00:00 GMT
 
 [ 7 post ] 

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