Spider bite or tick bite 
Author Message
 Spider bite or tick bite

I was wondering can a spider byte look similar to a tick bite?

I did have the classic ring and a very small red dot in the middle.



Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:04:06 GMT
 Spider bite or tick bite

Quote:

> I was wondering can a spider byte look similar to a tick bite?

> I did have the classic ring and a very small red dot in the middle.

yes.


Thu, 17 Apr 2003 22:04:27 GMT
 Spider bite or tick bite
Pain or not may be the key.

"Differentiating Loxoscelism [from bite of the brown recluse spider and its
cousins] from Lyme Disease" by EJ Masters, MD and Lloyd E King Jr MD PHD
"Emergency Medicine" August 1994

Nonpruritic rashes appearing within 48-72 hours after a resumed spider bite
are more likely to be caused by Loxosceles than by a tick 1-36 days later.
Lexoceles often appear to be "red, white and blue, surrounded by ischemia,
with small areas of necrosis.

Pain within hours to a few days after the bite strongly suggests the brown
recluse spider. Lyme rash, EM, are not typically painful.

Intense inflammatory reactions from Loxosceles bites tend to extend downward
from the site in a gravitationally dependent matter, "runny egg", Lyme rash
is typically bull's-eye.

Tissue necrosis and prolonged healing are much more likely to be the result
of Loxosceles envenomation than Lyme Disease. The  pictures I saw at the
EICs shows of a late treated case looks similar to what I have seen for
flesh eating bacteria. In Lexosceles a large ulcer forms within two weeks.
Healing with treatment of the case in the article was over 9 weeks.

Now unscientifically my mother had a "regular" spider bite last spring on
her shin, she is healthy except for early COPD age 73. It took about three
months to heal and she was concerned enough about it to go to a doctor, we
visit our physicians as infrequently as possible. Hers was a much, much
smaller, painful lesion with a runny egg appearance previous to scabbing.

You need to ask your physician to be sure as 'flesh eating bacteria" and
other diseases and conditions can start with what appears as a pimple or a
bite but may develop more rapidly than the spider bite.

Lynn in St Paul


Quote:
> I was wondering can a spider byte look similar to a tick bite?

> I did have the classic ring and a very small red dot in the middle.



Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:09:15 GMT
 Spider bite or tick bite
I'm still being daignosed, but what was first thought to be a spider
bite mught have been a...tick bite !
When I told them I hadn't seen the bulls'eye, they said, tick bites
don't alsways look like that...

On Sun, 29 Oct 2000 09:04:27 -0500, Kathleen

Quote:


>> I was wondering can a spider byte look similar to a tick bite?

>> I did have the classic ring and a very small red dot in the middle.

>yes.



Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:21:58 GMT
 Spider bite or tick bite
from:  Annals of Internal Medicine--Vol. 114--Number 6--March 15, 1991 pg.
490-498
title:  Diagnosis of Lyme Disease Based on Dermatologic Manifestations
authors:  Malane, MD, et al

".....The differential diagnosis of erythema
migrans includes cellulitis , tinea,  (ringworm) contact dermatitis, fixed drug
reaction. granuloma annulare, reaction to an insect bite, or a Brown recluse
spider bite (48)......"

source: Lyme Disease 1991
                Patient/Physician Perspectives from the U.S. and Canada

 "....These rashes are rarely painful, as brown recluse spider bites
almost always are, and often itch..."

"......I feel that the best approach in an endemic area would be to assume
that the rash is Lyme and treat accordingly.  It's better to err on the
side of overdiagnosis than to miss the diagnosis and have it haunt you
months or years later."  

    Skin Manifestations of Lyme Disease  by John Drulle M.D.

"Since Lyme disease is a widely disseminated, multi-organ system disease,
skin involvement is common, and occurs in about half of those infected.......

"The pathognomonic (diagnostic) rash of early Lyme is called EM(erythema
migrans--in Latin LErythema means redness, and migrans means migratory or
expanding).  It usually appears at the site of the tick, flea, fly, or
mosquito bite several days to a year or more later.  (It was recently
reported that 18% of the cases of Lyme in Austria are due to bites of
non-tick vectors  such as flies and perhaps mosquitos.  Borrelia
burgdorferi -Lyme spirochete- has been isolated from these insects.)  The
fact that one half of people who develope Lyme do not recall a tick bite
may be partially explained by non-tick vectors.  The EM rash is usually
circular or oval, but irregularly shaped rashes are common.  They may
spread or enlarge rapidly, but we have seen where pressure on the skin from
a tight garment impedes the progression of the rash causing irregularity of
shape.  There may or may not be central clearing, and concentric rings of
different shades are often seen within the rash.  There may be necrosis
(death of areas of tissue) or a blue violet shading at the site of the
bite.  These rashes are rarely painful, as brown recluse spider bites
almost always are, and often itch.  They are usually warm to the touch.
The rash may be completely flat, but occasionally the edges may be elevated
and be scaly or contain vesicular components.  Ten variations of the EM
rash have been described by Dr Alan McDonald.  Some of these are very
recognizable or "classic" in their appearance, but others may be confused
with other common skin infections such as ringworm, cellulitis, erythema
multiforme, eczema, or hives.

"......I feel that the best approach in an endemic area would be to assume
that the rash is Lyme and treat accordingly.  It's better to err on the
side of overdiagnosis than to miss the diagnosis and have it haunt you
months or years later."  
" Waiting for other symptoms to develop may delay treatment and result in
persistence of symptoms or even more serious problems in the future.

"........I must note that a treatment effective in one person may not work
in another.  This is generally true for any particular symptom of Lyme.

"Another type of chronic Lyme rash we have seen, occurs in some small
children.  These tend to be widely disseminated, blotchy plaques, pink in
color.  They do not spare the face.  They have been seen in children born
with Lyme, especially if the mother was a bit late in pregnancy.  These
rashes are usually misdiagnosed as eczema, and they do not respond to
topical or systemic steroids.  They do respond quite well to {*filter*}or IV
antibiotics ....

"In summary, I believe the current official description of Lyme skin
manifestations is quite incomplete.  We are anxiously awaiting the PCR test
to become more readily available, since I feel that we will find evidence
of active infection in many of these chronic skin rashes."
___________________________

".....Further studies utilizing larger sample sizes, more sensitive testing
measures, or spiders from an area more endemic with B. burgdorferi may further
prove or disprove that spiders are capable of harboring this organism...."

Title: Spiders and Borrelia burgdorferi: no evidence of reservoir occurrence in
central Arkansas.
Authors: Suffridge PJ, Smoller BR, Carrington PR
Source: Int J Dermatol 1999 Apr;38(4):296-7
Organization: Department of Dermatology, University of Arkansas for Medical
Sciences, Little Rock 72205, USA.

Abstract:
BACKGROUND: Although Ixodes ticks are considered the chief vector for Borrelia
burgdorferi in the USA, B. burgdorferi has also been identified in mosquitoes,
horse flies, and deer flies. We examined the possibility of these organisms
being harbored in two species of spider in central Arkansas. METHODS: Ten wolf
spiders (Lycosa gulosa) and two brown recluse spiders (Loxosceles reclusa) were
collected in central Arkansas during early summer and fixed in formalin.
Paraffin-embedded sections of the spiders were examined for spirochetes using
the modified Steiner spirochete staining method and examined for B. burgdorferi
using immunohistochemistry. RESULTS: All 12 spiders from both species were
found to be negative for all spirochetes including B. burgdorferi. CONCLUSIONS:
Spiders in our sample appeared not to harbor B. burgdorferi. Further studies
utilizing larger sample sizes, more sensitive testing measures, or spiders from
an area more endemic with B. burgdorferi may further prove or disprove that
spiders are capable of harboring this organism.

Keywords:
Animal, Antibodies, Bacterial, ANALYSIS, Arkansas, Borrelia burgdorferi,
IMMUNOLOGY, Immunohistochemistry, Lyme Disease, ETIOLOGY, MICROBIOLOGY,
Spiders, CHEMISTRY, MICROBIOLOGY

Language: Eng

Unique ID: 99253864



Fri, 18 Apr 2003 03:27:12 GMT
 Spider bite or tick bite
Please dont ignore this. I was told that I was bitten by a wolf spider.
Only I didnt see any spider. I was givine steriods for treatment. It
surpressed my immune system.

I was misdiagnosed. It was a tick that bit me.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.



Sat, 19 Apr 2003 00:04:04 GMT
 Spider bite or tick bite
Quote:
>Subject: Re: Spider bite or tick bite

>Date: 10/29/00 9:04 AM Eastern Standard Time


>> I was wondering can a spider byte look similar to a tick bite?

>> I did have the classic ring and a very small red dot in the middle.

>yes.

The answer is YES BUT....here is a repost of the same question from another
newsgroup and the answer (answer appears first, question below):

Terry: Spider bites, at least certain spider bites, can cause a rash that in
SOME ways is SIMILAR to the Lyme rash, but in many, many ways is very very
different.

The first question to ask is WHERE is your friend located? The brown recluse
spider is found only in certain limited areas of the country NOT including the
NE US nor California...
Brown Recluse Spider Territorial Map:
http://www.***.com/

The next question to ask is whether the bite was painful and whether the rash
is painful? Cause the bite and the rash are painful when it comes from a brown
recluse spider, sometimes agonizingly painful. The rash can have an
annular/circular appearance BUT w/in the first 24-48 hours the skin at the site
most often will become necrotic, painful and soon start to slough off...

Here are some links on this topic:

Identifying/misidentifying brown recluse spiders Dermatology:
http://www.***.com/
Entomology - Myth of the Brown Recluse Spider:
http://www.***.com/
Entomology - Spiders and other Arachnids:
http://www.***.com/
Entomology - Causes of Necrotic Wounds other than Brown Recluse Spider Bites:
http://www.***.com/
eMedicine Online Text - Emergency Medicine:

picid=547
HealthCentral - General Encyclopedia - Brown recluse spider:
http://www.***.com/
Brown Recluse Spider Bite Healing Progress Photos:
http://www.***.com/
HealthCentral.com picture lesion on the hand:
http://www.***.com/
Brown Recluse SPider bite, lesion on the back:
http://www.***.com/
Brown recluse spider - Symptoms:
http://www.***.com/
Brown Recluse Spider, genl info Q/A:
http://www.***.com/ ,3459,13...
Brown Recluse Spider Fact Sheet:
http://www.***.com/
Bites: Brown Recluse Spider Bites:
http://www.***.com/ ,4197,1606_121681,00....
Brown Recluse information and Traps that Stop Hobo and Brown Recluse Spiders:
http://www.***.com/
Alta Vista Search Results:
http://www.***.com/
&q=%22brown+recluse+spider%22&stq=10
Brittanica.com search
results/links: http://www.***.com/
rt=6&show=10

Compare the photos of brown recluse spider bites above and the information
about the bite with the following info about and photos of EM rashes:

"Get Wise to Lyme Disease: NJ DOH site w rash photos:"
http://www.***.com/
Image: Lyme Disease Rash:
http://www.***.com/
h.org/mayo/9703/htm/ww5rm13.htm
Symptoms of Lyme: rash pics: http://www.***.com/
More Lyme Disease Rash Pics:
http://www.***.com/
Alta vista image search results for Lyme rash:
http://www.***.com/ %...
e+disease+rash%22+%22Lyme+rash%22+%22erythema+migrans%22+%22bullseye+rash%
22+%22erythema+chronicum+migrans%22+%22ECM+rash%22+%22EM+rash%22&ipht=1&ig
rph=1&iclr=1&ibw=1&mmW=1&micat=1&search.x=30&search.y=13
Lyme Disease Foundation site has some rash pics:
http://www.***.com/
New York State Department of Health Communicable Disease Fact Sheets and rash
pics:
http://www.***.com/
From the lots of links guy, symptoms of Lyme, rash pic
links: http://www.***.com/
Erythema Migrans -- My Point of View: Dr Masters/Medscape: a good article and
some more rash pics:
http://www.***.com/
mast-01.html
Medscape Abstracts and Conference Summaries - Ehrlichiosis, Babesiosis, can
cause rashes too in additon to lyme:
http://www.***.com/
Some rash pics:
http://www.***.com/ ://www.m...
pe.com/Medscape/CNO/2000/LymeCS/Lyme%2D07.html

Another common myth/bit of MD misinformation I hear is this:

'Your rash itches. It CANNOT be a Lyme rash. That is an allergic reaction to a
bug bite.'

Typically the Lyme rash does NOT itch. However, MANY people are
allergic to bug bites, and specifically tick saliva. So it is
possible to be bitten by a tick and get an allergic reaction.
Which does not preclude also being infected by Lyme (and other
tickborne illnesses). An allergic reaction AND infection are not mutually
exclusive.

Also, remember that more Lyme rashes are atypical than present
in the classic bullseye.

The whole spider bite thing is another great myth and bit of
common MD misinformation.

The brown recluse spider bite is only superficially similar to
the Lyme rash in that they briefly can have a similar
appearance. The differences are far greater than the
similiarities:

The spider bite rash is almost always painful and so is the bite itself. The
spider bite rash tends to become necrotic and
painful in the middle and sloghing off of the skin following
necrosis is commonly seen.

MOST IMPORTANT: the spider whose bite causes this rash is almost never found in
the Northeastern United States--it prefers warmer southern climates, and is
rarely if ever found in the wild north of the mason dixon line. So all the
folks who call me from the
NE us who have not travelled south and tell me their doctor told them their
rash is from a spider bite, I urge to see an LLMD,
and remind them of these facts, and remind them that NO ONE can
distinguish one rash from another by simply looking with their
eyes--even DR RASH himself--many rashes of very different
origins present with very similar appearances and mere visual
examination is NOT enough, particularly for those who aren't
even trained as dermatologists (dermatalogists automatically
biopsy nearly every patient and send the biopsy off for
microscopic examination, staining for fungus and
histopathology).And I remind them that their doctor is not
likely to be an entymologist and is likely NOT much of an expert about bug
bites either!

The Great SPIDER BITE SCAM!!!!

Submitted by Category
From: Terry James

Date: 08-Oct-2000 at 07:48 AM EDT
Host: ip775.m0net.ips.techline.com /

Document Title: Can spider bites cause simular rashes?

Hi after going to a retirement party at where I worked,one of my good friends
showed me his knuckle of his right index finger. It was swollen and red with a
chunk that was missing right where he was bit. The weird part was he had a rash
on the left side of his chest that went from his {*filter*},staight up to his adams
apple, then over to the top of his shoulder, then diaganolly back to the
{*filter*}. This is the same kind of spread out rash that I had on my back and I've
been confirmed for lyme since November. He wants to shrug it off as just a
spider bite. Will spider bites cause rashes? and so far away from the bite
site. Or could he have been bitten by a spider on the nuckle of his right hand
and also been bit by a tick closer to the rash.Anybody with knowledge of spider
bites please respond. Thanks Terry
--
Joel M. Shmukler, Esquire, Director LYMECURE



Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:16:26 GMT
 
 [ 7 post ] 

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