IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!? 
Author Message
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?

Ok I"m sincerely asking this question. Not to be a wiseass but because
I am really wanting to know if this is even REMOTELY possible?
 Is it possible someone can have Lyme disease UNTREATED for FOURTY SIX
years and NOT be dead by now? Someone posted on "another board" they
have had Lyme for FOURTY SIX years and have only been in treatment for
the last 4.. Well????


Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:57:00 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?
yes, i can see that happen. you?



Quote:
> Ok I"m sincerely asking this question. Not to be a wiseass but because
> I am really wanting to know if this is even REMOTELY possible?
> Is it possible someone can have Lyme disease UNTREATED for FOURTY SIX
> years and NOT be dead by now? Someone posted on "another board" they
> have had Lyme for FOURTY SIX years and have only been in treatment for
> the last 4.. Well????



Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:17:15 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?
Not really thats why I asked.. Lyme disease can be VERY dangerous and
does kill. Wouldn't you think after 46 years it would have caused some
major and life threatening cardiac damage by now?
Quote:

> yes, i can see that happen. you?



> > Ok I"m sincerely asking this question. Not to be a wiseass but
because
> > I am really wanting to know if this is even REMOTELY possible?
> > Is it possible someone can have Lyme disease UNTREATED for FOURTY
SIX
> > years and NOT be dead by now? Someone posted on "another board"
they
> > have had Lyme for FOURTY SIX years and have only been in treatment
for
> > the last 4.. Well????



Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:18:13 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?

Quote:
> Ok I"m sincerely asking this question. Not to be a wiseass but because
> I am really wanting to know if this is even REMOTELY possible?
> Is it possible someone can have Lyme disease UNTREATED for FOURTY SIX
> years and NOT be dead by now?

It seems unlikely, but with a "waek" strain and a "strong" immune system
/perhaps/..


Wed, 22 Aug 2007 01:28:31 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?
I guess everyone sort of reacts to these sort of claims based on their
own personal experience.

For me, I know exactly when the trouble started...when I was
bitten...so I can trace a definite timeframe.

Developed neurological symptoms five months later. Cardiac stuff showed
up seven months after. Eye trouble within two months.

After one year, I was hospitalized for a week.

Yeah, the Lyme disease I know ...it is sort of hard for me to accept
some of these type claims...but I suppose anything is possible with
this.

And...personally, I suspect the disease... as we now know it...didn't
exist in N. America until sometime around 1975. that is just my
personal belief, but I think the circumstantial evidence supports that
conclusion.



Wed, 22 Aug 2007 02:01:54 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?

Quote:

> Ok I"m sincerely asking this question. Not to be a wiseass but
because
> I am really wanting to know if this is even REMOTELY possible?
>  Is it possible someone can have Lyme disease UNTREATED for FOURTY
SIX
> years and NOT be dead by now? Someone posted on "another board" they
> have had Lyme for FOURTY SIX years and have only been in treatment
for
> the last 4.. Well????

Princess I think the answer is YES ABSOLUTELY it is possible.

Lyme disease DOES cause fatalities, but they are relatively rare. Most
fatalaties are from:

o high degree heart block

o suicide

Long term, the morbidity associated with Lyme disease tends to be less
mortality than morbidity--meaning rather than death, it is more likely
that someone is diabled then dead.

Of course 46 years is a LONG time, and untreated it is certainly
possible that sequelae of the disease might contribute to
death--secondary conditions etc. However, since Lyme does NOT (often)
cause immunocompromise, unlike AIDS people are much less likely to die
from a secondary infection or opportunistic disease. Immune problems
associated with Lyme tend to predominately involve the response to Lyme
itself.

I think that other deaths associated with Lyme tend to be from
conditions that WE think are Lyme or Lyme related (ALS, parkinsons's
type symptoms. MS type symptoms, Alzehimer's like syptoms) and may be
Lyme or Lyme induced--however, only a percentage of Lyme patients
develop these conditions.

Also, from what you've told us, we don't know that this person wasn't
treated somehow, even if not for "Lyme"--so perhaps they received
antibiotics which might be useful against Lyme even though NOT
prescribed pursuant to a formal Lyme diagnosis. Even symptomatic
treatments might have helped prevent further mortality (even if not
morbidity).

ALSO: I always am curious HOW anyone KNOWS that they had LYME for x
number of years. There isn't a reliable test to say you have it NOW,
much less fif{*filter*}, twenty, or fourty six years ago.

I think too many "llmds" tend to say this without a solid basis-and too
many patients try to explain their lives by "I have had it since I was
ten but only diagnosed now."

So, I think this is possible but not particularly reliable.



Wed, 22 Aug 2007 03:24:40 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?
you know what would be horrible? IWhat if actually there was no such
thing as hypochondriasis. What if 99%of everyone who has ever been
diagnosed historically as being a hypochondriac actually had a
tick-born illness? I don't really believe this to be the case, but it's
frightening to think about.


Wed, 22 Aug 2007 04:12:46 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?

Quote:
> you know what would be horrible? IWhat if actually there was no such
> thing as hypochondriasis.

It perhaps exists, but it is extremely rare.
I would wager that there are many less hypochondriacs than paranoid
schizophrenics.

"Hypochondria" is a convenience "diagnosis", just like "Munchhausen by
proxy".



Wed, 22 Aug 2007 05:12:17 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?

Quote:

> you know what would be horrible? IWhat if actually there was no such
> thing as hypochondriasis. What if 99%of everyone who has ever been
> diagnosed historically as being a hypochondriac actually had a
> tick-born illness? I don't really believe this to be the case, but
it's
> frightening to think about.

I think the one to talk with it about is Dr Fallon who has expertise in
hypochondriasis (before his interest in Lyme) and now in Lyme, so he
would, perhaps, be a leading expert in the differential.

Of course, it is difficult to calculate, retrospectively, how much of
mental illness historically was due to infectious disease and the
subset of vector borne infections and the further subset of tickborne.

I think the focus needs to be on getting it right from now on, knowing
what we know now. For those putative hypochondriacs still around, I
think it merits revisiting that diagnosis in light of new developments
(such as our increasing understanding of the high incidence of mental
illness caused by infectious disease and tickborne disease).

Diagnosis always needs to be a provisional thing--a hypothesis always
meriting revisiting when it may not be a thoroughly explanatory or
satisfying explanation.

Here's an interesting article (vist the link to see the interesting
flow chart):

http://www.***.com/

Infectious Disease and Mental Illness

A significant amount of disease and mental disease may have an
infectious disease component to the pathological process. The evidence
to support this is a combination of insights from theoretical biology
(particularly Darwinian medicine), an expanding database of medical
research and direct clinical observations.

In my clinical experience, the link between psychopathology and
infectious disease has been an issue with Lyme disease, syphilis,
babesiosis, ehrlichiosis, mycoplasma pneumonia, toxoplasmosis, borna
virus, AIDS, CMV, herpes, strep and other unknown infectious agents.

The combination of chronic stress and chronic low-grade infectious
disease is a frequently seen dynamic. Disease begins with vulnerability
and an exposure to one or more stressors. The vulnerability may
commonly include genetic and/or increased vulnerability as a result of
chronic stress. As a result of these and other vulnerabilities, the
microbe more easily penetrates the host's defenses and an initial
infection may then occur. The course of the infection most relevant to
psychiatry would be chronic, low-grade, persistent infections or the
persistence of the infectious agent in the inactive state. At a later
point in time, some triggering event(s) (i.e.: chronic stress or other
infectious agents), may then cause the activation of the infectious
agent(s) and the progression of the pathological process. Neural injury
may occur by a variety of mechanisms, which include vasculitis, direct
cell injury, inflammation, autoimmune mechanisms and excitotoxicity.
This injury leads to a vicious cycle of disease resulting in
dysfunction of associative and/or modulating centers. Injury to
associative centers more commonly causes cognitive symptoms, while
injury to modulating centers more commonly causes emotional and
allocation of attention disorders. In some cases, the infection and
injury may occur before birth.

In my collective database of patients demonstrating psychiatric
symptoms in response to infectious disease, the majority of the cases
has been infected by Lyme disease and quite often co-infected with
other agents. Psychiatric syndromes caused by infectious disease in my
database most commonly include depression, OCD, panic disorder, social
phobias, variants of ADD, impulse control disorders, bi-polar
disorders, eating disorders, dementia, various cognitive impairments,
psychosis and a few cases of dissociative episodes. In the more obvious
cases, symptoms are present with cognitive, neurological and physical
signs. Laboratory tests are sometimes, but not always, able to confirm
the diagnosis.

*************************************************************

And here's one from Dr Branfield (I take his stuff with a grain or more
of salt, in that I think he may assume too much, but whether he is
right in 50% or 75% or 100% of cases, or less, it matters more the
cases he is right about rather than those he is wrong about):

http://www.***.com/
Microbes and Mental Illness

By Robert C. Bransfield, M.D.

            Microbes are the greatest predator of man. As medical
technology improves, there is increasing recognition that infectious
disease contributes not only to acute, but also chronic relapsing
illness and mental illness. The evidence to support this is a
combination of insights from theoretical biology (particularly
Darwinian medicine), research, and direct clinical observations.

            We lead our entire lives surrounded by microbes. In a state
of health, there is a balance, a reasonable resistance to infectious
disease, and a peaceful co-existence. In contrast, with

infectious disease, there is an imbalance between the threat posed by
microbes and host defenses. This balance is affected by environmental
factors (including exposure to pathogens) and a number of host factors
such as genetics and/or increased vulnerability as a result of a state
of chronic stress. Although the stress response is adaptive in a short
time frame to allocate resources during a crisis, if the stress
response is persistent, rather than cyclic, it further increases
vulnerability to disease.

            The most common sequence of disease begins with a
vulnerability and an exposure to one or more stressors. The
vulnerability may commonly include genetic and/or increased
vulnerability as a result of chronic stress. As a result of these and
other vulnerabilities, the microbe more easily penetrates the host's
defenses and an initial infection may then occur.

            Although infection may occur from microbes that are always
present in the environment, a greater number of organisms or more
virulent organisms further increase risk. Acute infections are most
noteworthy in general medicine. However, the course of the infection
most relevant to psychiatry includes injury from a prior infection;
chronic, low-grade, persistent relapsing infections; or the persistence
of  the infectious agent in the inactive state. When persistent,
relapsing infection occurs, there may be extended period of latency
followed by some triggering event(s) (i.e.: chronic stress, injury,
surgery, or other infectious agents), which may then cause the
activation of  the infectious agent(s) and the progression of the
pathological process.

            Some injury in infectious disease is a result of toxic
products or direct cell injury, but a significant amount of injury is a
result of host defenses gone awry in response to the infection. Neural
injury may occur by a variety of mechanisms, which include vasculitis,
direct cell injury, toxins, inflammation, cytokines, autoimmune
mechanisms, incorporation of parasite DNA into host DNA, and
excitotoxicity. This injury leads to a vicious cycle of disease,
resulting in dysfunction of associative and/or modulating centers of
the brain. Injury to associative centers more commonly causes cognitive
symptoms, while injury to modulating centers more commonly causes
emotional and allocation of attention disorders.

            Psychiatric syndromes caused by infectious disease most
commonly include depression, OCD, panic disorder, social phobias,
variants of ADD, episodic impulsive hostility, bipolar disorders,
eating disorders, dementia, various cognitive impairments, psychosis,
and a few cases of dissociative episodes.

            In clinical experience, the link between infectious disease
and psychopathology has been

an issue with Lyme disease, syphilis, babesiosis, ehrlichiosis,
mycoplasma pneumonia, toxoplasmosis; stealth virus, borna virus, AIDS,
CMV; herpes, strep and other unknown infectious agents. In the
collective database of patients demonstrating psychiatric symptoms in
response to infectious disease, the majority of the cases has been
infected by ticks. Aristotle referred to ticks as "{*filter*} disgusting
animals" (1). They spend their lives living in dirt, feeding on the
{*filter*} of mice, rats, and other wild animals (2). When they bite humans,
they pose a risk of injecting an infectious{*filter*}tail of pathogens into
the host.

            Patients with psychiatric symptoms from tick-borne diseases
are most commonly infected by Borrelia burgdorferi, (Bb) the causative
agent of Lyme disease and quite often other coinfections-infections.
There is an increasing recognition that many chronic relapsing
infections are complex interactive infections in which microbes
interact with each other in a manner that contributes to the disease
process. The models most commonly discussed are coinfections
associated with HIV and tick-borne coinfections. For example,
coinfections associated with Lyme disease may be acquired at the same
time, before or after the Bb infection. Interactive infections,
however, is a more accurate term than coinfections, since these
infections invariably cause an interaction that changes the disease
process.

            To understand coinfections, we need to begin by defining
each disease separately. This,

of course, is an area of much controversy in regard to late stage
chronic relapsing Lyme disease. A similar controversy exists in regard
to other chronic infections. It is difficult to explain how interaction
occurs when there is such disagreement defining the clinical syndrome
and pathophysiology associated with each infection separately.

            A couple of years ago, other tick-borne diseases were not
considered to be very significant in contributing to chronic, relapsing
Lyme disease. Once there was a greater focus upon these organisms, ...

read more »



Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:10:16 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?
On 4 Mar 2005 05:57:00 -0800, "PrincessKiara"

Quote:

>Ok I"m sincerely asking this question. Not to be a wiseass but because
>I am really wanting to know if this is even REMOTELY possible?

Great question. I believe I got it from when I was born. I had the all
over red rash thingamajig(anyone know the medical term?).

For a disease to proliferate it CANNOT quickly kill the host. If it
does that, the host cannot pass it on.Bb does not kill ticks because
that would end the line. If your human you live miserably but you
passe it  on by vertical and horizontal transmission therefore
allowing Bb to live long and prosper. Another  example would be HIV,
if killed instantly it would quickly run it's course. So that would be
a yes on my part.



Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:48:45 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?

Quote:

>I think the focus needs to be on getting it right from now on, knowing
>what we know now. For those putative hypochondriacs still around, I
>think it merits revisiting that diagnosis in light of new developments
>(such as our increasing understanding of the high incidence of mental
>illness caused by infectious disease and tickborne disease).

Especially due to the fact that Lyme is much more than a tickborne
disease.


Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:36:54 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?
It's funny...you mentioned Dr. Fallon and I have spoken to him myself
(I saw him as a patient). He was mostly all-business, far from willingr
to attribute everythingr to lyme. I'm havingr a problem with my
keyboard rigrht now, every time I hit GR an r follows. sorry about
that.
     Anyway, what is so difficult in lyme is when you see a patient,
run some tests and do a physical, and find that a typical LD spect is
present, maybe some punctates on the MRI, arreflexia, etc. but the
{*filter*} tests come back equivocal or even negrative. You don't feel very
groo in this case about sayingr "it's not lyme" because there's decent
evidence of a physical basis. CSF can be tested, but it's not all that
useful either way. Meanwhile, patricia coyle and others have their
specialized tests locked away from society (can anyone explain
this???she refused to respond to my emails about this) You search higrh
and low for every possible cause, hemochromatosis, etc. and come up
empty. then you have to keep in mind that there are different strains
of Bb, and there are new disorders, mostly uncharacterized, constantly
emergringr such as lonestari, bartonella, and whatever durland fish
discovered recently. What the hell can you do?


Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:15:18 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?

Quote:

> It's funny...you mentioned Dr. Fallon and I have spoken to him myself
> (I saw him as a patient). He was mostly all-business, far from
willingr
> to attribute everythingr to lyme. I'm havingr a problem with my
> keyboard rigrht now, every time I hit GR an r follows. sorry about
> that.

Did you try rebooting?

Quote:
>      Anyway, what is so difficult in lyme is when you see a patient,
> run some tests and do a physical, and find that a typical LD spect is
> present, maybe some punctates on the MRI, arreflexia, etc. but the
> {*filter*} tests come back equivocal or even negrative. You don't feel
very
> groo in this case about sayingr "it's not lyme" because there's
decent
> evidence of a physical basis. CSF can be tested, but it's not all
that
> useful either way. Meanwhile, patricia coyle and others have their
> specialized tests locked away from society (can anyone explain
> this???she refused to respond to my emails about this) You search
higrh
> and low for every possible cause, hemochromatosis, etc. and come up
> empty. then you have to keep in mind that there are different strains
> of Bb, and there are new disorders, mostly uncharacterized,
constantly
> emergringr such as lonestari, bartonella, and whatever durland fish
> discovered recently. What the hell can you do?



Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:17:44 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?

Quote:

> It's funny...you mentioned Dr. Fallon and I have spoken to him myself
> (I saw him as a patient).

I believe that you mentioned that previously.

Quote:
> He was mostly all-business, far from willingr
> to attribute everythingr to lyme.

Yes I think he is a very rational guy, not some wild eyed radical
"llmd" who calls everything Lyme. (unfortunately some of the "llmds"
are just that). I think he brings a good deal of scrutiny to the
diagnosis and proceeds fairly methodically.

'I'm havingr a problem with my

Quote:
> keyboard rigrht now, every time I hit GR an r follows. sorry about
> that.

Very odd.

Quote:
>      Anyway, what is so difficult in lyme is when you see a patient,
> run some tests and do a physical, and find that a typical LD spect is
> present, maybe some punctates on the MRI, arreflexia, etc. but the
> {*filter*} tests come back equivocal or even negrative. You don't feel
very
> groo in this case about sayingr "it's not lyme" because there's
decent
> evidence of a physical basis.

LOL Most doctors feel plenty "groo" (LOL) (or good and comfortable)
saying it is NOTLYME. In fact, that is a very common diagnosis of Lyme
patients; the "specialist" doesn't know what it IS but knows for damned
sure that it is NOTLYME. You hear it as "not Lyme" (it CAN'T BE LYME)
and wonder how they know that, why they don't know what it is but are
so damned sure it is not Lyme, but they really are making a diagnosis
of something called NOTLYME which I've come to conclude is a diagnosis.

NOTLYME=the disease caused by the etiologic agent Borrelia Burgdorferi
(and perhaps other borrelia and frequently seen as a coinfection with
other tickborne pathogens such as babesia microti, erhlichia, RMSF
etc.) but which does NOT meet the CDC criteria and is NOT what Allen
Steere thinks is "Lyme."

That is what NOTLYME is--what we have rather than what Allen Steere
describes and is also caused by the same etiologic agent. In other
words the same etiologic agent causes a wide variety of
manifestations--the clinical difference between "Lyme" and "NOTLYME" is
the narrowmindedness and lack of astuteness or obuseness of the
clinician rendering the diagnosis.

Quote:
>CSF can be tested, but it's not all that
> useful either way. Meanwhile, patricia coyle and others have their
> specialized tests locked away from society (can anyone explain
> this???she refused to respond to my emails about this)

They do "research testing" (Liegner uses their tests) which they
haven't succesfully commercialized I think is the answer.

Quote:
> You search higrh
> and low for every possible cause, hemochromatosis, etc. and come up
> empty. then you have to keep in mind that there are different strains
> of Bb, and there are new disorders, mostly uncharacterized,
constantly
> emergringr such as lonestari, bartonella, and whatever durland fish
> discovered recently. What the hell can you do?

A thorough differential and see someone a bit more open minded than
Allen Steere et al


Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:27:32 GMT
 IS it even POSSIBLE?!??!?
I know this doesn't count as "data", but  I find it interesting,
actually, appalling.
 From the Cape Codder, Dec 3, 1999, by Dr. Gary Johnson, the clinical
trial mamager
of the Klempner study, on a patient recruiting mission on the Cape.
Anyone with evidence of "active' Lyme wouldn't be be eligible. Persons
found through the initial testing
to have evidence of active Lyme will be referred to their primary
physicians for treatment.
"We are studying that group of Lyme patients who have ongoing chronic
symptoms with no evidence of
active infection by standard testing".


Sat, 25 Aug 2007 00:39:42 GMT
 
 [ 21 post ]  Go to page: [1] [2]

 Relevant Pages 

1. Stay as far away from Corrupticut as possible- Germany apparently is not even far enough

2. looking for a diet to reduce levels of B lymphocytes, if that's even possible

3. Making the Impossible Possible: Reversing Type 2 Diabetes is Possible

4. i am here and i am reading

5. I am Terry and I am HIV+

6. I am ineligible for psychotherapy, which I am very much in need of at present

7. I am suspicious of this activity even WITHOUT box cutters.

8. I am so high on Vicodin HP right now I can't even keep my eyes in focus.....

9. Feeling GREAT! Is that possible or am I dreaming?

10. :( Severe Myopia/Possible Blindness /I am only 30yrs old/Need Info on Dr. William Bates' Method


 
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software