Porcelain Fused to Gold vs Regular PFTM Crown in Posterior 
Author Message
 Porcelain Fused to Gold vs Regular PFTM Crown in Posterior

Please discuss pros and cons for porcelain fused to gold crowns in
posterior teeth vs. run of the mill PFTM crowns.  Thanks.


Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:50:52 GMT
 Porcelain Fused to Gold vs Regular PFTM Crown in Posterior
    Generally, the quality of the crown is more dependent on the skill
of the dentist and the technician than what the coping is made of.  More
frequently (still not common) a patient will have a gingival reaction to
non-precious alloys.  This was more frequent in the early days of PFM
crowns, when nickle was commonly in the alloy.  Gold is, of course, more
easy to cast, machine and adjust.
    I don't know if there is any difference in bond strengths of
ceramics to various substrates--perhaps the techs could comment.

Steve

Quote:

> Please discuss pros and cons for porcelain fused to gold crowns in
> posterior teeth vs. run of the mill PFTM crowns.  Thanks.



Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:11:18 GMT
 Porcelain Fused to Gold vs Regular PFTM Crown in Posterior


Quote:
> Please discuss pros and cons for porcelain fused to gold crowns in
> posterior teeth vs. run of the mill PFTM crowns.  Thanks.

I might offer that you also consider "milled Porcelain Onlays".  More
conservative, and has lots of potential.  We cannot, however, give you ten
year survival rates, only predictions based on the first five years the
service has been available.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.

Troy, Michigan  USA
+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will effect
your health.
......................



Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:11:55 GMT
 Porcelain Fused to Gold vs Regular PFTM Crown in Posterior


Quote:



> > Please discuss pros and cons for porcelain fused to gold crowns in
> > posterior teeth vs. run of the mill PFTM crowns.  Thanks.

> I might offer that you also consider "milled Porcelain Onlays".  More
> conservative, and has lots of potential.  We cannot, however, give you ten
> year survival rates, only predictions based on the first five years the
> service has been available.

Why does Cerec advertising tout 15-20 years of clinical success?


Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:12:51 GMT
 Porcelain Fused to Gold vs Regular PFTM Crown in Posterior


Quote:
>     Generally, the quality of the crown is more dependent on the skill
> of the dentist and the technician than what the coping is made of.  More
> frequently (still not common) a patient will have a gingival reaction to
> non-precious alloys.  This was more frequent in the early days of PFM
> crowns, when nickle was commonly in the alloy.  Gold is, of course, more
> easy to cast, machine and adjust.
>     I don't know if there is any difference in bond strengths of
> ceramics to various substrates--perhaps the techs could comment.

> Steve

     Since no techs have yet made comment, I guess you are stuck with the
opinion of a tech's husband.  Most techs would much rather deal with the
gold (hi-noble) alloys.  The NP metal can make a good crown, but is more
technique-sensitive.  While Steve's answer is clinically and politically
correct, I have a slightly different take on the matter.  From years of
listening to dental lab gossip, I can tell you that few dentists will allow
NP in their own or their family's mouths.  From personal experience I can
tell you that NO lab tech would make a case for themselves out of NP unless
there were some special reason.  It is not that NP is SO bad, it is just
that the difference in price per unit is not really that great.  When I get
work done for myself, I gladly pay the difference ($40 or $50) to get
hi-noble (my insurance only covers NP.)

     Nickel is not the only problem, your body can react to ANY metal, but
gold seems to be the safest.  Beryllium can also cause a skin reaction and
could potentially be deadly should it somehow find its way into your lungs.
I hasten to say that I know of no documented case of a patient or even a
dentist getting beryllium disease and I pay great attention to such things.
My wife...now that's another matter.

Regards;
Vaughn

Below is an article my wife and I wrote for publication a while back:

Beryllium; The Stealth Poison

     Beryllium is truly a space age metal.  Silvery in color, it is lighter
than aluminum, yet stronger than steel.  Once in short supply because of
cold war weapons programs, it is still prized for aerospace applications,
but is also increasingly finding application in consumer goods such as
certain high-end sporting goods and dental work.

     For decades it has been known that beryllium can cause certain
illnesses.  We now know that exposure to a vanishingly tiny amount of
beryllium can cause an incurable, sometimes fatal, lung disease in certain
sensitive people.

    We think of beryllium as a "stealth poison" for many reasons.  First,
the dose of beryllium that can cause Chronic Beryllium Disease (CBD) is so
tiny that it is absolutely undetectable by human senses.  Second, there may
be a delay of many years between exposure to beryllium and the emergence of
any symptoms.  Third, it is very possible that a victim will never even be
properly diagnosed, even though seriously ill.  CBD often masquerades as
Sarcoidosis, and other lung conditions.  Fourth, it is possible to be
exposed to beryllium without your knowledge.  As more and more beryllium is
used in consumer goods and dental work, it will enter our lives via the
s{*filter*}metal recycling industry.  A very small percentage of beryllium in a
metal you are polishing, cleaning, or cutting could be a hazard to your
health.

     Is beryllium-containing dental work really a hazard to your health?
Well, it certainly is a hazard to the lab worker who makes your teeth, and
it represents a potential hazard to your dentist as he performs the final
grinding and polishing to fit the restoration in your mouth.  Once in your
mouth, our present understanding is that beryllium-containing dental work is
probably safe except for a small possibility of gum irritation.  That having
been said, few dental professionals that we have asked privately will allow
anything less than gold restorations in their own mouth.  Do you deserve
less?

     It really all comes down to money.  There are two basic groupings of
metals that are used in dentistry; in the trade they are classed as
"non-precious" and "high noble".   Both types of metal will do the job; the
difference is safety and price.   As you might expect, your dental insurance
will only pay for the cheaper option.  Depending on market conditions, the
wholesale price difference for the better metal is about thirty dollars per
tooth.  Many dentists will be happy to allow you to pay the difference.
Alternatively, ask your dentist to specify a base metal that does not
contain beryllium and ask to see an "alloy classification certificate" that
specifies the composition of the metal alloy used.  This certificate should
be supplied to your dentist by the dental lab that makes your restoration
and it should become a permanent part of your dental record.

     The good news about Chronic Beryllium Disease is that it is totally
preventable.  We do not need beryllium in our consumer goods, and we
especially do not need beryllium in our bodies.  Many superior substitutes
exist.  Let us leave beryllium to the few high-tech aerospace applications
where no reasonable substitutions exist, and where only those who are
properly informed and trained, and equipped will handle it.



Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:08:44 GMT
 Porcelain Fused to Gold vs Regular PFTM Crown in Posterior
Vaughn--

    To your knowledge, is beryllium used in any c&b alloys?  I thought it was
more a problem with alloys used for partial denture frames.
    Geez, I've not been called politically correct, that I can remember.  I
wonder if the aversion to non-precious isn't largely emotional.  I work for some
union plans that allow as little as a $345 fee (UFT in New York).  At those fee
levels, a $50 difference will certainly make a difference.  And you'd best
believe that (at least without a push from me), patients that expect their plan
to pick up almost or all of the fee won't gladly pay that $50.
    My preference personally for precious is the history and the ease of
working.

Steve

Quote:



> >     Generally, the quality of the crown is more dependent on the skill
> > of the dentist and the technician than what the coping is made of.  More
> > frequently (still not common) a patient will have a gingival reaction to
> > non-precious alloys.  This was more frequent in the early days of PFM
> > crowns, when nickle was commonly in the alloy.  Gold is, of course, more
> > easy to cast, machine and adjust.
> >     I don't know if there is any difference in bond strengths of
> > ceramics to various substrates--perhaps the techs could comment.

> > Steve

>      Since no techs have yet made comment, I guess you are stuck with the
> opinion of a tech's husband.  Most techs would much rather deal with the
> gold (hi-noble) alloys.  The NP metal can make a good crown, but is more
> technique-sensitive.  While Steve's answer is clinically and politically
> correct, I have a slightly different take on the matter.  From years of
> listening to dental lab gossip, I can tell you that few dentists will allow
> NP in their own or their family's mouths.  From personal experience I can
> tell you that NO lab tech would make a case for themselves out of NP unless
> there were some special reason.  It is not that NP is SO bad, it is just
> that the difference in price per unit is not really that great.  When I get
> work done for myself, I gladly pay the difference ($40 or $50) to get
> hi-noble (my insurance only covers NP.)

>      Nickel is not the only problem, your body can react to ANY metal, but
> gold seems to be the safest.  Beryllium can also cause a skin reaction and
> could potentially be deadly should it somehow find its way into your lungs.
> I hasten to say that I know of no documented case of a patient or even a
> dentist getting beryllium disease and I pay great attention to such things.
> My wife...now that's another matter.

> Regards;
> Vaughn

> Below is an article my wife and I wrote for publication a while back:

> Beryllium; The Stealth Poison

>      Beryllium is truly a space age metal.  Silvery in color, it is lighter
> than aluminum, yet stronger than steel.  Once in short supply because of
> cold war weapons programs, it is still prized for aerospace applications,
> but is also increasingly finding application in consumer goods such as
> certain high-end sporting goods and dental work.

>      For decades it has been known that beryllium can cause certain
> illnesses.  We now know that exposure to a vanishingly tiny amount of
> beryllium can cause an incurable, sometimes fatal, lung disease in certain
> sensitive people.

>     We think of beryllium as a "stealth poison" for many reasons.  First,
> the dose of beryllium that can cause Chronic Beryllium Disease (CBD) is so
> tiny that it is absolutely undetectable by human senses.  Second, there may
> be a delay of many years between exposure to beryllium and the emergence of
> any symptoms.  Third, it is very possible that a victim will never even be
> properly diagnosed, even though seriously ill.  CBD often masquerades as
> Sarcoidosis, and other lung conditions.  Fourth, it is possible to be
> exposed to beryllium without your knowledge.  As more and more beryllium is
> used in consumer goods and dental work, it will enter our lives via the
> s{*filter*}metal recycling industry.  A very small percentage of beryllium in a
> metal you are polishing, cleaning, or cutting could be a hazard to your
> health.

>      Is beryllium-containing dental work really a hazard to your health?
> Well, it certainly is a hazard to the lab worker who makes your teeth, and
> it represents a potential hazard to your dentist as he performs the final
> grinding and polishing to fit the restoration in your mouth.  Once in your
> mouth, our present understanding is that beryllium-containing dental work is
> probably safe except for a small possibility of gum irritation.  That having
> been said, few dental professionals that we have asked privately will allow
> anything less than gold restorations in their own mouth.  Do you deserve
> less?

>      It really all comes down to money.  There are two basic groupings of
> metals that are used in dentistry; in the trade they are classed as
> "non-precious" and "high noble".   Both types of metal will do the job; the
> difference is safety and price.   As you might expect, your dental insurance
> will only pay for the cheaper option.  Depending on market conditions, the
> wholesale price difference for the better metal is about thirty dollars per
> tooth.  Many dentists will be happy to allow you to pay the difference.
> Alternatively, ask your dentist to specify a base metal that does not
> contain beryllium and ask to see an "alloy classification certificate" that
> specifies the composition of the metal alloy used.  This certificate should
> be supplied to your dentist by the dental lab that makes your restoration
> and it should become a permanent part of your dental record.

>      The good news about Chronic Beryllium Disease is that it is totally
> preventable.  We do not need beryllium in our consumer goods, and we
> especially do not need beryllium in our bodies.  Many superior substitutes
> exist.  Let us leave beryllium to the few high-tech aerospace applications
> where no reasonable substitutions exist, and where only those who are
> properly informed and trained, and equipped will handle it.



Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:13:17 GMT
 Porcelain Fused to Gold vs Regular PFTM Crown in Posterior
Cerec 1 came State-side somewhere around 1989.  Ten year survival rate was
over 82% (if I remember right).  Cerec 2 & 3 improved marginal integrity
somewhere near 14 times improvement (again I have not looked at the figures
in months).  Cerec 2 hit the USA in 1995-6.  Five year survival rates with
the newer software and milling chambers is mimicking gold.  In Europe, the
machines have been available longer.

Personally, I recite figures from articles I actually read, not from
adverti{*filter*}ts.  So I describe the five year studies with my patients.  Take
some research, add some logical deduction, mix in your own thinking and
decision making, and you make decisions valid for yourself.

Steve

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S.

Troy, Michigan  USA
+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+
This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only.
Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on
the advice or opinion expressed here.  Only a dentist who has examined you
in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will effect
your health.
......................


Quote:





> > > Please discuss pros and cons for porcelain fused to gold crowns in
> > > posterior teeth vs. run of the mill PFTM crowns.  Thanks.

> > I might offer that you also consider "milled Porcelain Onlays".  More
> > conservative, and has lots of potential.  We cannot, however, give you
ten
> > year survival rates, only predictions based on the first five years the
> > service has been available.

> Why does Cerec advertising tout 15-20 years of clinical success?



Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:51:58 GMT
 Porcelain Fused to Gold vs Regular PFTM Crown in Posterior


Quote:
> To the best of your knowledge, do high-noble alloys NOT contain beryllium?

I HAVE seen high-noble dental alloys with beryllium, but it is not common.
Probably intended for frameworks.  This takes us back to the "Identally"
certificate or some reasonable facsimile that your lab should be supplying
with every case, but probably doesn't bother.
     If someone had the money to do some research and wanted to get
published, it would make a great project to survey the accuracy of
manufacturer's alloy data.  As you must know, there is a healthy market in
s{*filter*}dental gold.  If you go into the metalworking area of the lab that
does your work, you will find a carpet on the floor.  That carpet will
someday be smelted down for the metal dust it contains.  So the logical
question is; how do they refine out all of the beryllium and other NP metals
from the gold?  My guess is that they don't always, and you really don't
have any way of knowing exactly what is in the metal you buy.  That having
been said, the manufacturer's certificate is still the best thing we have to
go on.

Vaughn



Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:23:07 GMT
 Porcelain Fused to Gold vs Regular PFTM Crown in Posterior
    Well, you're certainly right that I haven't seen an "identity certificate"
returned with my lab cases.
    I think this illustrates that we should be more aware of just what materials
our labs are using.

Thanks,
Steve

Quote:



> > To the best of your knowledge, do high-noble alloys NOT contain beryllium?

> I HAVE seen high-noble dental alloys with beryllium, but it is not common.
> Probably intended for frameworks.  This takes us back to the "Identally"
> certificate or some reasonable facsimile that your lab should be supplying
> with every case, but probably doesn't bother.
>      If someone had the money to do some research and wanted to get
> published, it would make a great project to survey the accuracy of
> manufacturer's alloy data.  As you must know, there is a healthy market in
> s{*filter*}dental gold.  If you go into the metalworking area of the lab that
> does your work, you will find a carpet on the floor.  That carpet will
> someday be smelted down for the metal dust it contains.  So the logical
> question is; how do they refine out all of the beryllium and other NP metals
> from the gold?  My guess is that they don't always, and you really don't
> have any way of knowing exactly what is in the metal you buy.  That having
> been said, the manufacturer's certificate is still the best thing we have to
> go on.

> Vaughn



Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:38:19 GMT
 
 [ 12 post ] 

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