"Take this discussion elsewhere!"
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Joel M. Eich #1 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
About "Take this discussion elsewhere!" Computer Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that our young people are pretty darned ignorant when it comes to computers! Huh? Where's this coming from? I have asked many many young people from time to time about this or that, things that they claim they are learning in high school or college. In general, there is a dismally low level of computer knowledge. Of course, there are exceptions, but the exceptions are not what is needed for the future. What's needed is a highly educated "mean score" plus one standard deviation unit. What we got right now is a tiny slice two standard deviation units far out to the right. I'm afraid that the "business of educating" the populace is just "business as usual." Take banking. You go into the branch office on the corner and they are not overwhelmed with retail customers. Right across the street, is another competing bank's branch. Same story. They just stare out across the street at each other. Now along comes a corporate banking consolidator and through stock transfer, they close 500 branches. Now 10,000 people are no longer staring out the window. They are all looking for work. The demise of retail banking is just as well, those layoffs notwithstanding. Those long lines at the bank during lunch time are quite often populated by some people cashing their checks. Those offices are overloaded with the "bounced checks" garbage, the low returns, and all of the associated problems. The future of banking is "business banking." The future of retail banking is electronic deposit coupled with ATM transactions. This is just as well. Things change. But what about the 10,000 people? They might want a little bit of retraining in computers. To the rescue comes the University of the Arts, Philadelphia's own university devoted exclusively to education and professional training in the visual and performing arts. They offer a Web Design Certificate Program. You need to take Photoshop, Advanced Multimedia (Macromedia Director), plus 4 other courses. Each course costs $790. Each course consists of 12 3-hour classes. Do the math. You sit in a classroom and hear lectures and learn computer stuff. It cost you 20 bucks an hour. After $5,000. you got the certificate. You might have learned something or other too. There are plenty of other people who know a lot more than you do. They might even be eating ravioli in the lunchroom today. They are high school kids. But unfortunately for them, the "Certificate" holds lots of sway. Pretty generally, the $5,000. splits the world into 2 groups. Those than can and those that can't. You can get some scholarships or loans, but why? Every kid in the 9th grade or higher should already know this crappola cold, inside out. Why let the University teach nothing and charge something? If I were the president of the PTA or a member of the school board, I sure would rattle some cages. The University of the Arts provides the room and hires a part-time instructor for $1,500. for the entire course. (Its 12 3-hour sessions - $40. per hour). They jam 10 or 20 people into the room and that is that. (They are bringing in $200. to $400. per hour, depending if it is 10 people or 20 people sitting there.) That, plus paying the heating and electric bill, providing a computer lab, and the cost of printing 50,000 brochures to get some customers pretty much does it. But this adds lots of cash to their bottom line. Lots of cash. These web designers graduate and get a job and they are not out of the woods just yet. Remember, they got the loan and now they got a second unstable career. Remember, almost everyone in the world including my dog Cody already has a web site. Let's hope that they can pay off the loan before there is even more consolidation. How about learning something useful, like "how computers work" right in high school. You do not need Al{*filter*}to announce that the U.S. of A. is wiring every classroom for "mucho dinardo" for this to happen. Wiring every classroom helps no one except the "already-fat" networking companies. I do not care if every kid can surf the 'net in school. I do not care if they have not yet seen the "Dr. Laura pictures." I do care that no one can query a database. I can teach someone how to do that on this 80386, 16MHz computer sitting in front of me. The one with 1 meg of ram. Its street value is $25. I can write some macros and do programming on this too. How about your kids? Do they even know what this means? I'll bet they do not. Cheers, Joel Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. PS- Take this discussion elsewhere? I do not think so! You should know that this post addresses the corporate dental consolidators and the kids (dentists) who walk out of dental school with $200,000. in debt the day they graduate. Reread this post and extrapolate what I've said about computers to dentistry. If you understand one, you understand both. You'll find that "take this discussion elsewhere" has no place in any discussion anywhere in America! You'll also find that I waste plenty of bandwidth by making liberal use of "new paragraph markers." This is necessary because reading without white space is very tedious. Even with white space it is plenty tedious! So forget the "wasted bandwidth" argument too. As for the content, our readers will be the judge of that!
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Mon, 11 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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J K Rigne #2 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
Quote: >Wiring every classroom helps no one except the "already-fat" >networking companies. I do not care if every kid can surf the >'net in school. I do not care if they have not yet seen the >"Dr. Laura pictures." I do care that no one can query a >database. I can teach someone how to do that on this 80386, >16MHz computer sitting in front of me. The one with 1 meg of >ram. Its street value is $25.
In your dreams! I just saw a pile of 486DX33's with 16meg of RAM, 400+ meg HD's and the like for $39. 30 day bring it back warranty, too. Early Pentium boxes similarly configurd were $69. As they say, use it or lose it. The wiring of the classrooms reflects general trends in US miseducation. When in doubt, buy hardware, build new buildings, etc. Since those in charge don't have a clue themsleves (we pride ourselves on ignorance in this country. That's why we have to import graduate students in mathematics and the sciences), all that fancy equipment will be wasted. My experience is pretty much the same. This 50+ year old was playing around with "micro-computers" in the 70's. I now build and service all of my own. I've set up my own home network with a few wrinkles you won't find in the network at the office. I have no certificates, so the office pays big money to some {*filter*} who forked over about ten grand to Novell (now that's a racket!) to get a certificate to be a "consultant." He hasn't learned anything new in about the last eight years, and it shows. He's totally obsolete, yet these paper qualification happy morons keep providing him an unearned living. And so it goes. Quote: >You'll also find that I waste plenty of bandwidth by making >liberal use of "new paragraph markers." This is necessary >because reading without white space is very tedious. Even >with white space it is plenty tedious! So forget the "wasted >bandwidth" argument too. As for the content, our readers >will be the judge of that!
Making a blank line between paragraphs uses one character. Not much in the was of bandwidth abuse, especially when you consider those endless "signature" files many attach to their posts, especially the ones that use HTML. Where did you say that mindmill was? Cheers, JKR
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Mon, 11 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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Joel M. Eich #3 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
Quote: >In your dreams! I just saw a pile of 486DX33's with 16meg of RAM, 400+ meg >HD's and the like for $39. 30 day bring it back warranty, too. Early Pentium >boxes similarly configurd were $69. As they say, use it or lose it.
I'm still trying to figure out what to do with this pile of steel 370 days from today. The CMOS on every single one, except the one I bought last year will explode! Cheers, Joel ---------------- Can you really reprogram the EPROM on a computer that I hear is now worth only $15.?
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Tue, 12 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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Joel M. Eich #4 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
If you wish to get cynical, there are those programmers who have mentioned Y2K for at least 20 years. Those guys were hooted down by the industry. I guess that the industry figured that computers would become something like refrigerators (commodity) and they would need something to get all of the old computers to stop all at once! Cheers, Joel ------------
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Tue, 12 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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J K Rigne #5 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
Quote:
>>In your dreams! I just saw a pile of 486DX33's with 16meg of RAM, 400+ meg >>HD's and the like for $39. 30 day bring it back warranty, too. Early Pentium >>boxes similarly configurd were $69. As they say, use it or lose it. >I'm still trying to figure out what to do with this pile of steel 370 >days from today.
Maybe someone could gather them all up and turn them into a nice artificial reef somewhere? Quote: >The CMOS on every single one, except the one I bought last year will >explode!
You overdramatize, my friend. They may just take on their own strange calendar turn. The CMOS on most 486 and later desktop machines should be OK. Just try the 12/31/99 at 23:59 and wait for a minute test. Tried it with the machine from which I'm typing this a while ago (a now seemingly aging P166) and found that it's going to be correct until about 2047, and then it will jump back to about 1974. Don't ask me why, but that's how the Award folks set it up. If this computer is anything but a boat anchor in 2047, it should be real cause for alarm. Of course, some older software for PC's, mostly of the DOS variety may have used the two digit year shortcut, so there could be problems if you are using some really old accounting software on your beloved AT. But I should think that most dentists have upgraded lately, and I doubt that any but the most antedeluvian Windows software has any Y2K problems. Let's face it; the Y2K problem is mostly going to affect those 1960's mainframe monsters--you know, the ones which use enough electricity to light up a small town--far too many of which can still be found chugging away in large companies and government agencies. Those systems are going to cost a mint to reprogram (their original programmers probably have already retired) or replace. And they can do a lot of damage. Quote: >Can you really reprogram the EPROM on a computer that I hear is now >worth only $15.?
Sure. Just spend a couple hundred on a good PROM burner. Or spend $75 or so for a new CMOS chip. It's a little like spending $60/hr to have someone repair an old toaster, isn't it? What did you say about computers as commodities? It's actually not such a bad thing. Wouldn't it be great if automobile parts were as interchangeable as are the parts for a PC? Think of what it would do to the price of a car. Cheers, JKR
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Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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Joel M. Eich #6 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
Hi! Like you may be, I am a frustrated engineer. It all began when I took a watch apart when I was 7 or so, put it back together and had a couple of little wheels left over. I do not use any of the "old computers" for production. I use Word97, Office, Access, FoxPro, etc on a modern computer (which costs under $1,000. today.) I also run ethernet 10 megabit up and down the various stories, inside the walls of my house. With NICs costing $30 to $40, its a great way to save on sneaker {*filter*}. The old ones are strictly for fun and sentimental value. I recall how I struggled with some of the primitive computers. Hey! We all did! However, they afford some understanding of how the computer world developed. Cheers, Joel -------------
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>>>In your dreams! I just saw a pile of 486DX33's with 16meg of RAM, 400+ meg >>>HD's and the like for $39. 30 day bring it back warranty, too. Early >Pentium >>>boxes similarly configurd were $69. As they say, use it or lose it. >>I'm still trying to figure out what to do with this pile of steel 370 >>days from today. >Maybe someone could gather them all up and turn them into a nice artificial >reef somewhere? >>The CMOS on every single one, except the one I bought last year will >>explode! >You overdramatize, my friend. They may just take on their own strange >calendar turn. The CMOS on most 486 and later desktop machines should be OK. >Just try the 12/31/99 at 23:59 and wait for a minute test. Tried it with the >machine from which I'm typing this a while ago (a now seemingly aging P166) >and found that it's going to be correct until about 2047, and then it will >jump back to about 1974. Don't ask me why, but that's how the Award folks >set it up. If this computer is anything but a boat anchor in 2047, it should >be real cause for alarm. >Of course, some older software for PC's, mostly of the DOS variety may have >used the two digit year shortcut, so there could be problems if you are >using some really old accounting software on your beloved AT. But I should >think that most dentists have upgraded lately, and I doubt that any but the >most antedeluvian Windows software has any Y2K problems. >Let's face it; the Y2K problem is mostly going to affect those 1960's >mainframe monsters--you know, the ones which use enough electricity to light >up a small town--far too many of which can still be found chugging away in >large companies and government agencies. Those systems are going to cost a >mint to reprogram (their original programmers probably have already retired) >or replace. And they can do a lot of damage. >>Can you really reprogram the EPROM on a computer that I hear is now >>worth only $15.? >Sure. Just spend a couple hundred on a good PROM burner. Or spend $75 or so >for a new CMOS chip. It's a little like spending $60/hr to have someone >repair an old toaster, isn't it? What did you say about computers as >commodities? It's actually not such a bad thing. Wouldn't it be great if >automobile parts were as interchangeable as are the parts for a PC? Think of >what it would do to the price of a car. >Cheers, >JKR
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Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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Dr. Chanda Kal #7 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
I am so surprised that we do not think beyond money. Yes , kids of this generation do need latest computers. Yes they also need access to internet because it is the future. Having computers in classroom is not about participating in a newsgroup discussion, it is much more than that to these kids, it is their avenue to education. What my 7 year old daughter can do , many {*filter*}s can not because they have never used computers. At the same time, there are 12/13 year olds who can teach lot of things to computer pundits such as us. Every generation has different priorities and different trends in education. And we all should agree that these machines are here to stay. 10 years ago, in a dentist office it was a rarity, today 80% of us are wired up. There are more computers per capita in US than anywhere in the world; may be except Japan, Taiwan and Korea. This is not about Networking. I had network running in DOS days in my office and I was my own Lan manager/administrator. Windows 95 makes it lot more easier to have networking, that does not make Lan Administrators stupid and Novell useless. Everything has its own place. Thanks to Novel, Lantastic and Windows 95, little guys like us can enjoy benefits of computing. My first PC, in 1982 was an XT which I bought for $2500. Today, you can buy a very decent computer for less than $1000. Why should not schools equip themselves, so that our children will learn ? 386/486 are absolute machines. You could not install or make modern programs fit into puny harddrives that they carry. It has nothing to do with, can you use a computer ! sure one can use 286/386/486..'s but you will also be limited with age old programs. You could not do Live Video Conferencing with oldies, you could not use latest Shockwave technology. You know what is happening in Japan/Taiwan ? they teach their students on their latest pc's, their latest technology. Their technical schools are like factories equipped with rows of computers connected to internet/audio/video etc. Because they know that "It is our Future"
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Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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Joel M. Eich #8 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
The investment needs to be with "quality teaching" not buying more equipment. We agree that modern computers are necessary, but most children do not know the essentials of how computers work and programming works. This is teachable. It takes time and talent. Cheers, Joel -------------------
Quote: >I am so surprised that we do not think beyond money. >Yes , kids of this generation do need latest computers. Yes they also need >access to internet because it is the future. >Having computers in classroom is not about participating in a newsgroup >discussion, it is much more than that to these kids, it is their avenue to >education. What my 7 year old daughter can do , many {*filter*}s can not because >they have never used computers. >At the same time, there are 12/13 year olds who can teach lot of things to >computer pundits such as us. >Every generation has different priorities and different trends in education. >And we all should agree that these machines are here to stay. 10 years ago, >in a dentist office it was a rarity, today 80% of us are wired up. There are >more computers per capita in US than anywhere in the world; may be except >Japan, Taiwan and Korea. >This is not about Networking. I had network running in DOS days in my office >and I was my own Lan manager/administrator. Windows 95 makes it lot more >easier to have networking, that does not make Lan Administrators stupid and >Novell useless. Everything has its own place. Thanks to Novel, Lantastic and >Windows 95, little guys like us can enjoy benefits of computing. >My first PC, in 1982 was an XT which I bought for $2500. Today, you can buy >a very decent computer for less than $1000. Why should not schools equip >themselves, so that our children will learn ? 386/486 are absolute machines. >You could not install or make modern programs fit into puny harddrives that >they carry. It has nothing to do with, can you use a computer ! sure one can >use 286/386/486..'s but you will also be limited with age old programs. >You could not do Live Video Conferencing with oldies, you could not use >latest Shockwave technology. >You know what is happening in Japan/Taiwan ? they teach their students on >their latest pc's, their latest technology. Their technical schools are like >factories equipped with rows of computers connected to internet/audio/video >etc. >Because they know that "It is our Future"
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Thu, 14 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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Dr. Chanda Kal #9 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
Absolutely. "Quality Teachers" ; "Quality Libraries that have quality books"; "Quality educational programs" are all very important; which may make quality students. I will tell you something, above everything we need to have "QUALITY PARENTING"... to bring the best out of these little guys/gals. I thought in this discussion we are strictly talking about computers. Best teachers, best schools , best computers, best written books etc means NOTHING if there is parental guidance. That is why I believe in ,2 parent households. It is a lot of work and hats off to those of you , who are single parents and still manage to educate your kids to their fullest ability. It does take a special person to a special parent. Talking about kids, one should do whatever we can to make sure that generations after us, will have better future than what we have. That is why I like living in America, because in spite of all the tabloid hoopla, we care to be better, we care to give, we care to have better environment, we care and we do, more than any country in the world. As a leader, as one of the richest country, as one of the most advance country, we need to start caring that other countries are far behind and they can not be left so far behind. We need to help them to bridge the gap in poverty, technology and education. Not just America but all countries that are doing well such as Germany, Japan, Sweden, Taiwan, Korea etc. Decay somewhere else will affect everyone eventually because we share the same resources on this planet. May be not us living and may be not in this lifetime, but our children and their children for sure.
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Thu, 14 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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J K Rigne #10 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
Quote:
>You know what is happening in Japan/Taiwan ? they teach their students on >their latest pc's, their latest technology. Their technical schools are like >factories equipped with rows of computers connected to internet/audio/video >etc.
Interesting, because very recently a friend who is very familiar with Japan and its industries was shocked at how little, comparatively speaking, computers were being used in business and industry in Japan. Cheers, JKR
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Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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Joel M. Eich #11 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
Hi JKR, I have been watching for increased productivity resulting from computer applications. It has not been there . . . until a few years ago. It possible that the economic advances that we have seen the past few years is a result of computer-aided design in the aerospace industry, the automobile industry, and the toaster oven industry, too. Look at the new models and notice how the bumpers, grills and tail lights are integrated into the body. Well, except for the toaster ovens! When design teams get together, instead of creating plywood mock-ups, they can do it on a 3-D application on a screen. This was explained to me by a friend in the aerospace industry. Boeing. Cheers, Joel -------------------
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>>You know what is happening in Japan/Taiwan ? they teach their students on >>their latest pc's, their latest technology. Their technical schools are >like >>factories equipped with rows of computers connected to internet/audio/video >>etc. >Interesting, because very recently a friend who is very familiar with Japan >and its industries was shocked at how little, comparatively speaking, >computers were being used in business and industry in Japan. >Cheers, >JKR
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Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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Dr. Chanda Kal #12 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
That is true. Almost any design regard less of type, machine, building, electronic, highways, plane or computers themselves, are being done in 3D for past several years. Windows 95/98 had made it possible for common person to have a computer that out does a mainframe 20 years ago. How cool can that be ? Can you think of doing research without one ? keeping stats ? balancing your checkbook ? Some of the educational programs for kids are phenomenal as well. Fisher is a good software brand for kids educational software. 1 month ago, I was contacted while I was online and available for audio/video conferencing; by a educational institute in Taiwan, for a test with me. I could actually see their classroom , with 50-60 pc's and student behind each PC with headphone etc. I do not see such class's in USA. I was testing myself for video-conferencing. I was able to speak with a group of general dentists in New Orleans via internet. They could see me on their projected screen. I have no idea, how good was the image or quality of sound. But I was in my office, talking to these guys about teeth over internet and they could see me via attached camera to my PC. It was great. This is were tech is flowing to and our kids need to be exposed to it. For me as kid growing up, a ball point pen or a felt tip pen was a novelty. For my father, a Parker Ink Pen was a novelty and for these kids, they use less of pen/paper and more of word processor/printer. Printer will be absolute as well...! because it is all going towards being paperless which includes projects/papers/exams/homework..... Folks, I am aiming to go paperless as of 01/01/1999. Do not you want to wish me luck ? I have few days left to implement my protocol.
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Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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Hans Lennro #13 / 13
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 "Take this discussion elsewhere!"
Hi Dr. Chanda Kale, Quote:
>There are more computers per capita in US than anywhere in the world; >may be except Japan, Taiwan and Korea.
nei, nei. I think the succession order is: No 1: Finland No 2: U.S.A. No 3: Sweden Japan, Taiwan and Korea are not even close! Hans PS: Actually computers are surprisingly little in use in Japan as well as Taiwan and Korea. I do not think the beat any of the European countries (at least not those in the European Union) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote:
>This is not about Networking. I had network running in DOS days in my office >and I was my own Lan manager/administrator. Windows 95 makes it lot more >easier to have networking, that does not make Lan Administrators stupid and >Novell useless. Everything has its own place. Thanks to Novel, Lantastic and >Windows 95, little guys like us can enjoy benefits of computing. >My first PC, in 1982 was an XT which I bought for $2500. Today, you can buy >a very decent computer for less than $1000. Why should not schools equip >themselves, so that our children will learn ? 386/486 are absolute machines. >You could not install or make modern programs fit into puny harddrives that >they carry. It has nothing to do with, can you use a computer ! sure one can >use 286/386/486..'s but you will also be limited with age old programs. >You could not do Live Video Conferencing with oldies, you could not use >latest Shockwave technology. >You know what is happening in Japan/Taiwan ? they teach their students on >their latest pc's, their latest technology. Their technical schools are like >factories equipped with rows of computers connected to internet/audio/video >etc. >Because they know that "It is our Future"
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Wed, 20 Jun 2001 03:00:00 GMT |
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