Until this newsgroup is better monitored to keep the dental rif raff
("TMJ" specialists and anti-amalgamists, especially "ade") from hogging the
posts, I suggest we boycott!
Its a shame that what could be a real tool for communication between
reputable dentists and the public is littered by the likes of these folks.
As soon as I see this posted - I'M OUTTA HERE!

Dr. John B. Nase, DDS

I can't help but respond to this post with anger.

As there is no dental professionalist who is a "TMJ Specialist" I have
to assume you are talking about the patients who became "TMJ
specialists" because of what the dental profession has done to us - are
we the "riff raff"?

I'm curious as to why there can't be communication between us (TMJ
Patients) and the "reputable" dentists in this ng?

It _was_, after all, your profession that made so many of us TMJ Victims
and for many different reasons.

Now that we are TMJ Patient Specialists - for life - why would a dental
forum not be the place for us to post?

As much as so many in the dental profession would like to "sweep us
under a rug" and forget about the mistakes of the past - we are not
going to just disappear!

This isn't a "game" to hog posts - this is no "GAME" - this is what our
lives have become because of shoddy research, illegal implants, botched
surgeries and uncaring dental doctors who would rather we just left them
alone so they don't have to face the responsibility of their actions!

I find it rather ironic that the profession that made so many of us
life-long TMJ patients don't want to hear from us now that the damage
has been done.

Where are your ethics?

I feel my anger to this post is especially justified today as I just
heard of another TMJ Patient dying - not a Vitek Victim - but a victim
of TMJ and what was done to her.

It saddens me that the profession that helped to make us this way are
now working so hard to get rid of us and keep us quiet.

But this isn't going to happen - as more and more are finding out about
the "TMJ Crisis" - the voices will get louder!

We, the permanent TMJ Patients, are still part of the public and
encourage communication between us and "reputable" dentists.

Maybe the dental "riff raff" such as yourself shouldn't be posting to
this ng - it's time for the truth to be told - and it will be!

There are just too many of us to "sweep away" - and with the numbers
that are dying because of improper TMJ treatments - the rest of us are
not going anywhere.

If you can't take the heat - stay out of the fire!

Judy

Go Judy Go!!!!!!!!!!!

As a dentist I was ashamed  when I read this post (see below).This guy
wants to censor the internet in the name of " tool for communication
between reputable dentists and public".
Wake up man!!!  The public wants to know about the controversy about
amalgam and the {*filter*}that's going on in treating TMJ disorders.

I personally use amalgam everyday and do not have a problem in putting
it in my own mouth. But I'm man enough to admit that there should be
more research done to see if "these folks" have a point.
I don't  buy their theory and think that was really cooked up by a few
dentist that wanted to maximize their profit by taking all amalgam
restorations out, replacing it with more expensive material. But who
am I to tell them not to be here?

As far as the TMJ goes, I'm just ashamed how some dentists are taking
advantage of these poor people. How do you explain an occlusal/night
guard costing $1800+ while I charge $250 for the same damn appliance?

It surprises me that so many dentists are making a living out of
treating TMJ. I would be completely broke if I did that. The reason
you might ask? I DON'T SEE THAT MANY SYMPTOMATIC PATIENTS.

Yes there are clicks here and there but people are not complaining. I
give them a few preventative advice ( don't chew gum, catch yourself
before opening wide for a yawn, etc) and send them home. If and when
they return with symptoms, the combination of anti-inflammtories, a
CHEAP hard occlusal/night guard, and life style modifications if
possible takes care of almost everyone.

I can truly say that %100 of my patients( a number that is well below
50 for a busy six day a week practice) with TMJ disorders are living
fine with the above treatment. Sure they have days that are worse than
others but the good days outnumber the bad ones by a huge margin.
Can you say the same thing about the patients that had the surgery?
BTW, they all know I recommend against surgery unless they are
dis-functional.

So please quit complaining about "these folks". They have as much
right to be here as your censoring self. This is the Internet,
REMEMBER. Free, un-censored, and at times wacky.

We dentist as a group have to come WAY down to earth and start looking
at problems that exist in our LITTLE community. Did you read the
Readers Digest article? $1500 vs. $25000 treatment plan? But that's
another posting  for another time.

I hope you don't leave and stay around enough to get to know "these
folks" better. They are mostly harmless and might teach you one or two
things about life and dentistry. ( yes even dentistry).

Cheers,

dds

Best wishes,
Steve

(Maybe that's why they always called it "silver" amalgam instead of
*mercury* amalgam.)

    Proposed and passed in 1992-1993:

    The main objective of sci.med.dentisty is to allow
    internet users (dentists, dental students, researchers,
    and patients) the opportunity to discuss Dentistry and
    any dental related issues.  Included in this forum would
    be the issues of dental research, patient/dentist
    interaction, new technology in dentistry, infection
    control discussion/answers, legislation issues in
    dentistry, question and answers, medico-legal issues,
    and any other dentally related issues.

And if I have it correctly, the chap who created
sci.med.dentistry turned his back on the charter and ran; he
now runs at least one private group (excludes patients or
the public at large :-) and is rarely seen in public.

  Mark    Gosh...some of these Montanans really like to cheat....

On Sun, 21 Sep 1997 02:22:40 +0000, "Steven W. Fawks DDS"

We both know you are aware of failed TMJ surgical procedures.  I know
you have been here a long  time and read a lot of the posts myself and
webby and others have contributed pointing out this fact.  I would
like to know Steve if you are willing now to stand up with the
patients and demand that the manufacturers of TMJ implants track these
high risk devices.  Please tell me Steve you will support us, please
write your U.S. Senators today and ask that they vote yes to Senator
Durbin's amendment to Senate Bill S.830.  Whatever else is going on in
this thread does not concern me at this time.  What disturbs me is an
apparent lack of concern over this impending legislation which is far
more important than Dr. Nase.  This is critical and it deserves your
full and immediate attention.  

To any other dentists or patients reading this I urge you take
immediate action and phone, e-mail, or FAX, your US Senator's and ask
for a yes vote.  We the patients need your support now more than ever.

Regards,

Bruce Chang

     Senator Durbin's Amendment #1139 would retain the safety
protections that were enacted in 1990 in the Safe Medical Devices Act
of 1990.   The Safe Medical Device Act made tracking and surveillance
of high  risk devices mandatory.  Industry has complained that these
provisions  are burdensome and that FDA does not inspect the companies
to see if  they are complying.  These are not good reasons to
undermine these  vital programs that seek to detect safety problems in
devices early and aim to locate via effective recalls the patients
that have faulty  medical devices.  We should be saying that this
program needs to be  strongly enforced not undermined by making it
optional.  The Secretary  currently chooses to do {*filter*} implant
surveillance and tracking.  The  House FDA reform bill would do away
with this discretionary program.

Before anyone gets into an uproar over your post it might be best to
just tell everyone who it is you are referring to.  So let me ask a
few questions about your post and maybe we can figure this out.  

1.  Who are the "TMJ" specialists ?

2.  Who are the "anti-amalgamists, especially "ade"" ?

3.  Who is the "rif raff" ?

4.  Who are the "reputable dentists" ?

5.  Who are the "public" that litter this place?

Webby and I are are commited to the need for conflict resolution in
this group.  We have been here for 3 years now and have seen about
everything imaginable come through this place, so for the sake of the
group, for the sake of good community relations and for the sake of
giving you the benefit of the doubt, I urge you to please explain what
you mean.

Regards,

Bruce Chang

P.S.  FYI this group is a non-moderated public Newsgroup.  I wanted to
post the "Charter" for this group for you but I can't seem to find it
at the moment, when I do I will post it.  If you happen to have a copy
of, or access to, "the TMJ Iatroepidemic" it appears on page 189.  My
copy is not with me at the moment or I would have retyped it for you.

I agree with you as to the point that all dentists are not to blame and
in no way do I think that _all_ dentists were involved in the Vitek TMJ
Implant Fiasco.

I know that there is good and bad in every profession and sadly that
includes the dental and medical professions also.

Here is where are opinions differ - I can't say what is happening in the
United States but in Canada, where the implants were never passed for
use in the first place, my experiences have all led me to believe that
the dental profession _is_ trying to silence us all.

I'm not speaking of individual dentists/{*filter*}surgeons but their
governing body. There are many dental professionalists that are still
not aware of the fact that these implants were ever used because they
were never passed for use in our country. That doesn't change the facts.

I feel lucky to have a dentist in my own city who has no problems taking
care of my dental needs in a very caring manner. But I also know of
others who have not been so fortunate.

We have to travel 1000 miles away for any decent treatment - and in the
last 4 years many things have changed as the news has spread.

Though the implants have been removed (or what could be found of them)
our problems have only begun. Now these problems are being down-played
and put to other things. I don't expect that will change anytime soon
except with more research.

What frightens me the most is that there are still too many implant
patients being butchered in order to keep things quiet. And they are
dying.

If I had not left my country to find out what was wrong with me - I
would have been one of them - of this there is no doubt.

And then there are the ones who still have not been notified - and they
are dying - many because they simply could not stand the pain any longer
and I can't blame them for that - but there is blame to be had.

If this is happening so rampant in my city/country then I can't help but
believe it is happening in your country too.

None of this could have happened if there had been device tracking in
effect before 1990. If this isn't done now - how will another disaster
such as the Vitek Implant Disaster be averted?

It's too late for many of us - but not too late for all those who have
yet to become implant recipients - of _any_ kind.

I don't have a senator to write to even though I did write Senator
Durbin. As a Canadian it seems our voices don't count in this matter.

Will you help by writing and supporting Senator Durbin's amendment to
Senate Bill #30?

It is the only way that another disaster such as the Vitek one won't
happen again - and those of us who need some kind of jaw implant can
feel safe - when, and if, we are able to get one.

Thank you for your time

Judy

SWF DDS

On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:19:10 +0000, "Steven W. Fawks DDS"

Webby

On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:19:10 +0000, "Steven W. Fawks DDS"

Thank you for your support in this time of need.  It really does make
a difference to all of us that you have helped.  I remain hopeful that
more people here, doctors and lay alike, will find time in their busy
schedules to send a message to their Senators.  Heck, we mailed every
Senator with an e-mail address, but I don't expect everyone to go the
same extremes as Webby & I do.  Again thanx Steve for the public show
of support.  I appreciate the cc: as well because as we all know
Usenet is suffering something terrible.  Not enough News Server
doctors to keep up with the demand I suppose.  :-)

Sincerely,

Bruce