:>>[...]
:>>:
:>>: The problem is that flouride is being used to solve a problem that
:is
:>>: acknowledged to be caused by malnutrition.  (i.e. bad diet in
:general,
:*not*
:>>: one lacking in flouride)  Flouride is, at best, a band-aid
:solution, that
:>>: lets people eat trash and keep their teeth intact, flourosis or no.
:
:And that's the thrust of it. Good response Stuart. Maybe if we taxed
:junk cooking.net">food like they do cigarettes and {*filter*}, we might get somewhere.
:
:stuff edited
:
:>>But I ask if you can name a study in which animals have attained
:health
:>>with the fluoride chemically removed from their diet.
:>>

:
:Brian we have discussed this before. You didn't seem to get the
:message, so now I'll repeat it in public.

Yes, I remember you emailed me after I said how mature plaque
concentrates magnesium and fluoride on the tooth surface.

I was quoting Ritchie who says that lots of dietary fluoride is not such
a factor in the health of teeth which have a mature plaque, because the
plaque can absorb it from very low levels in the saliva. But you didn't
want fluoride to play any part at all, not even the smaller amount which
Ritchie properly plaqued teeth can cope with. And we haven't yet
completed our plaque argument. You say there won't be any because of
toothpaste, I remember.

I am asking whether it is better to take some care with the plaque, then
not have to worry so much about fluoride and sugar in the diet.

You and Stuart advise putting lots of care into eating certain foods,
but you are not willing to say take care of the protective layer on the
tooth surface.

Of course it is possible to adjust dietarily to other lacks and toxins
sometimes, but sometimes it is a great problem.

:Fluoride has nothing to do with "health"
:and is not an essential nutrient. In 1971, the National Academy of
:Sciences noted the following about essentiality of substances in their
:report on fluoride:
:"First, it should be possible to demonstrate repeated and significant
:responses in growth or health to dietary supplements of the element and
:to the element alone;

Sorry but what about putting the correct dosage into that equation.

:second, it should be possible to develop a
:deficiency state on diets that lack the element but that are otherwise
:adequate and satisfactory. Such diets should contain all other known
:dietary essentials in adequate amounts."

That is asking quite a lot. Also it is not taking account of toxins
which the body might have to deal with. Selenium is one example of an
essential nutrient which it is very easy to overdose into toxicity. In
China deficiency and dietary excess both occur in different regions.
Cadmium is a toxic substance sometimes in food.

:They also stated that "Unequivocal evidence that fluorides perform any
:vital function in animals has not yet been produced."  I might add,
:that it still hasn't.
:You asked for studies. Yes there are some. Drs. Maurer and Day, from
:the Department of Chemistry at Indiana University in Bloomington (don't
:have the study. I imagine it's available because the Academy used this
:study) pointed out:
:"Under the extremely rigorous conditions of this study, fluorine was
:not
:found to have any influence on the growth and well-being of rats. There
:were not even grossly detectable dental defects.

Were the teeth surfaces of the rats challenged?

:Thus it is jutifiable
:to conslude that under some conditions, fluorine may not have any value
:in nutrition or even in the maintenance of dental health."

With fluoride it is hoped that a wider range of conditions can be
adjusted to. Even abrasive toothpaste, perhaps. I agree with taking risk
out of the environment. But to leave children suffering for a matter of
principle does not appear fair.

:Another one used by the Academy is by Dr. A.R. Doberenz and other
:researchers at the University of Arizona in Tucson-- no detectable
:differences in general health or growth rate between fluoridated and
:non-fluoridated rats. A similar study was done on mice with the same
:results. Again, you might try Medline.
:Since that time, as far as I know, only two studies have claimed that
:fluoride is an essential nutrient; both have been thoroughly
:discredited
:and have not been replicated by others. In one of these studies, the
:original researchers had skimped on a very important constituent --
:sufficient iron.

I have to look into iron. Ferrous iron tonic can be very erosive to
teeth. Some men do {*filter*} doning to reduce their iron to reduce risk of
heart trouble. I feel that nutrients need to be in balance rather than
trying to make one, say iron, take over some of another's function.

:When subsequent researchers rectified this, the original
:results pointing to fluoride essentiality disappeared.

And perhaps the iron deficiency could have been reduced with extra
vitamin C. But vitamin C in very large doses can impair copper levels.
Perhaps it can even take over some of the function of copper, I am not
certain. Copper is in the respiratory enzyme ceruloplasmin.

:Regarding the oft-repeated claim by many proponents that fluoride
:reduces
:tooth decay and therefore is a nutrient, the Academy points out: "That
:in
:itself is no indication of fluorine essentiality, inasmuch as caries
:incidence depends on many factors, and many persons with perfectly
:sound
:dentition have had only minimal exposure to fluoride."

That was Ritchie's point, with the mature plaque.

:On the other end of the scale, there are now numerous studies which
:show
:that fluoride interferes with many enzymes, reproduction, {*filter*}
:motility,
:etc. etc.
:Can we put this to rest now Brian? Neither people nor animals "need"
:fluoride to attain HEALTH. If I'm wrong and it is necessary, it's in
:such
:minute quantites that no scientific study could ever be designed to
:test
:for it because fluoride is so ubiquitous. One of the two studies I
:mentioned above used double distilled water through four generations of
:rats and a diet which contained about 0.007 parts per million fluoride.
:
:The second was even lower in F- content.
:Regards, Elke

I think there would be quite a lot of fluoride in composite dental
fillings, probably ytterbium fluoride.;)-

But remember, both you and I hope to get by without fluoride
supplementation. There may be other factors which cannot be avoided,
then it may be necessary to supplement.

The citations and abstracts below were taken from Biological
Abstracts on CD-ROM, produced by BIOSIS, the world's largest abstracting
and indexing company in the life sciences. BIOSIS produces over 500,000
citations per year from journals, meetings, books, and patents. Although
BIOSIS makes a diligent effort to provide a complete and accurate
representation of bioscientific and other literature, BIOSIS does not
guarantee the accuracy, adequacy, or completeness of any information.
For more information, contact BIOSIS at 2100 Arch Street, Philadelphia,
PA 19013, USA; telephone 1-800-523-4806 (U.S. and Canada), (215)587-4847
(Worldwide); World Wide Web URL: http://www.***.com/ ; Internet e-mail:

TI: Dietary modulation of the symptoms of cadmium toxicity in rats:
Effects of vitamins A,C,D,D hormone, and fluoride.
AU: PLESANTS-E-W; WASLIEN-C; NAUGHTON-B-A
SO: NUTRITION RESEARCH 13(7): 839-850
PY: 1993
LA: English
AB: The effects of vitamins A, C, D, and D hormone
(1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D-3), and fluoride and combinations of these
micronutrients on the toxic symptoms of young rats exposed to 80 ppm
cadmium (Cd-2+) in the drinking water and fed a modified AIN-76 diet
were studied for 14 weeks. Cd-2+ treated rats displayed smaller body
weight gains and larger relative kidney and testis weights than
controls. Treatment of Cd-2+ exposed rats with vitamins A or D
ameliorated these symptoms. When combined, these two vitamins were
synergistic in this protection as was the combination of vitamin A and
1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D-3. Animals exposed to Cd-2+ and treated with
vitamin A or a combination of A and D had lower femur dry weights than
rats exposed to Cd-2+ alone but this effect was not seen with the
combination of vitamin A and 1,25-dihyroxyvitamin D. Vitamin C had no
protective action on the kidneys or testes but caused an increase in the
dry weight of the femurs of the exposed rats. Fluoride partially reduced
the weight depression of the Cd-2+ exposed rats at certain time periods
and lowered the relative weights of the testes in these animals.
Fluoride, in combination with 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D-3, significantly
increased the dry and mineral (ash) weights of the femurs of the Cd-2+
exposed rats above that of the controls, a finding which may be relevant
to the treatment of osteoporsis. Exposure of rats of Cd-2+ significantly
depressed the hematocrits and erythrocyte counts and altered the ratio
of granuloid to mononuclear peripheral leukocytes. Treatment of Cd-2+
exposed rats with either vitamin A and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D-3 or
vitamins A and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D-3 and fluoride appeared to lessen
the hematotoxicity associated with Cd-2+ exposure.

TI: Effect of dietary fluoride on selenite toxicity in the rat.
AU: YU-Q; CERKLEWSKI-F-L; WHANGER-P-D; HEDSTROM-O; RIDLINGTON-J-W
SO: BIOLOGICAL TRACE ELEMENT RESEARCH 34(3): 265-278
PY: 1992
LA: English
AB: Three factorial experiments were conducted to determine if high
dietary fluoride (F) would inhibit selenite toxicity in rats. Initially,
three levels of selenite (0.05, 3, and 5 mg/kg diet) were matched
against three levels of F (2, 75, and 150 mg/kg diet). Fluoride failed
to prevent the depressive effect of selenite on 8-wk cooking.net">food intake and
body wt gain. Selenium (Se) concentration of ...

read more »

But selenium and  cadmium aren't poured into the nation's water supply.
Fluoride is.   Almost every other drug dosage is based on many factors
like age, body weight, allergies or intolerances and need.  Not fluoride -
just put it in the water.   Put it in the elderly.  Put it in diabetics.
Put it into cancer patients.  
Put it into infants.  (who even dentists say should have none).  Put it
into people with impaired immune systems.  Put it into the allergic.  This
is the method dentists proscribe to deliver1 milligram fluoride daily to
children while their teeth are developing.

Carol Kopf

There are many medical treatments which are not sufficiently adjusted to
the individual. Is there a a test for possible penicillin anaphyllactic
shock yet? So often we need more diagnosis as to what treatment is going
to work for a particular biochemistry. I am sure better methods than
trial and error could be produced with todays science. So I shall start
by asking you, "What other characteristics of a person('s biochemistry)
might point to a risk of living in a high fluoride area, or eating high
fluoride imported food?"

:
: >Selenium is one example of an essential nutrient which it is very easy
: >to overdose into toxicity.  In China deficiency and dietary excess both
: occur in >different regions.  Cadmium is a toxic substance sometimes in
: food.
:
: But selenium and  cadmium aren't poured into the nation's water supply.
: Fluoride is.  

I mentioned those two because, from the abstracts I presented, it seems
that fluoride may help to protect the body from excess of those two. Elke
had said that there is no known need for fluoride in a proper diet. I offer
those little pieces of evidence to suggest that there may be a
possibility that fluoride could take away some of the toxic load when
the diet is not proper, as it is very easy for it to be.

Almost every other drug dosage is based on many factors
: like age, body weight, allergies or intolerances and need.

To some extent, though usually allergies are found by trial and error.

 Not fluoride -
: just put it in the water.   Put it in the elderly.  Put it in diabetics.
: Put it into cancer patients.  
: Put it into infants.  (who even dentists say should have none).

Yes, what is being done to label infant milk formulae with that risk,
perhaps to make different fluoride levels of it so that it can be prepared in
fluoridated water? Often baby foods are prepared in a district with
fluoridation. Levels can get too high.

 Put it
: into people with impaired immune systems.  Put it into the allergic.  This
: is the method dentists proscribe to deliver1 milligram fluoride daily to
: children while their teeth are developing.
:
: Carol Kopf

First of all, your premise is illogical.  Tooth decay is not a contagious
life-threatening disease.  So there is no need to compare fluoride to
penicillin.

But to play your game - fluoride sould be contraindicated for people who
display outward signs of fluoride poisoning (dental fluorosis), the
allergic, diabetic, kidney patients, athletes, laborers, dieters, and
others who drink large amounts of water, people with impaired immune
systems, cancer patients, arthritics, people with osteoporosis and anyone
who wants to avoid the above disorders.

That's like fighting fire with fire.  I know that calcium, Vitamin C and D
help wash fluoride out of the body and they nourish the body, too.
Selenium is an antioxidant that has been  proven to be a cancer
preventative.  Most people don't get enough of it.  If what you're saying
is right - that fluoride washes selenium out of the body - I guess you can
add "the selenium deficient" to my above list of people who should avoid
fluoride.

I think the best thing to do is write your local legislators.  Tell them
to stop putting fluoride into your water, cooking.net">food chain and body.  Let each
individual decide the amount of fluoride they want or need.

Carol Kopf

But to play your game - flouride should be contraindicated for people who
display outward signs of fluoride poisoning (dental fluorosis), the
allergic, diabetic, kidney patients, athletes, laborers, dieters, and
others who drink large amounts of water, people with impaired immune
systems, cancer patients, arthritics, people with osteoporosis and anyone
who wants to avoid the above disorders.

That's like fighting fire with fire.  I know that calcium, Vitamin C and D
help wash fluoride out of the body and they nourish the body.  Selenium is
an antioxidant that has been proven to be a cancer preventative.  Most
people don't get enough of it.  If what you're saying is right - that
fluoride washes selenium out of the body -  I guess you can add "the
selenium deficient" to my above list.

About labeling baby formual.  In the 70's, there was a law that baby
formual had to have the fluoride filtered out from its water source (but I
know rules change).

I think the best thing to do is write your local legislators.  Tell them
to stop putting fluoride into the water.  Let each individual decide the
amount of fluoride they want - if any.

Carol Kopf

                                   Mike

--
Michael J. Layton, D.D.S.
Truro, N.S.

--
Michael J. Layton, D.D.S.
Truro, N.S.

I have.  They can't.

That's why you shouldn't put fluoride into Joe's water.  Joe doesn't know:

.   he gets fluoride in his pasta boiled with fluoridated water,

.   he gets  fluoride in most of the beverages he cosumes that are    
bottled in fluoridated areas,

.   he gets extra amounts of fluoride in his tea because boiling        
condenses the amount of fluoride in one cup and tea has natural        
fluoride in it already

.   he gets fluoride from his cold mist humidifier using fluoridated    
water

.   He inhales fluoride in the shower

.    If Joe lives near the ocean, Joe gets fluoride from ocean mist.

.    Fluoride is a component of acid rain and volcanic eruptions
     (Joe and the volcano - too much fluoride)

.    Joe drinks two gallons of water a day because he's a runner.        
    Doctors tell him lots and lots of water; it's good for him.  Did they
          tell him to drink bottled water?

Poor Joe.  Give him a break.  Take fluoride out of his water.  "That's
what the health professions are for," - to protect us?

Carol Kopf

But there may be some people on borderline diets who are doing their
best. Though you know I do not promote fluoridation of the water supply.
All you seem to be concerned with is stopping fluoridation. If you were
genuinely concerned with health you would try to help those who cannot
cope with or manipulate their current fluoride dietary budget. Get a cost
estimate and charge it up to the fluoridaters, from what they save on
smaller dentistry payments.

:
: But to play your game - flouride should be contraindicated for people who
: display outward signs of fluoride poisoning (dental fluorosis), the
: allergic, diabetic, kidney patients, athletes, laborers, dieters, and
: others who drink large amounts of water, people with impaired immune
: systems, cancer patients, arthritics, people with osteoporosis and anyone
: who wants to avoid the above disorders.

Therefore, start to do a proper budget about this.

Monetary budget and biochemical budget.

Charge it.

:
: >it seems that fluoride may hlep to protect the body from excess of those
: two (selenium and cadmium)
:
: That's like fighting fire with fire.  I know that calcium, Vitamin C and D
: help wash fluoride out of the body and they nourish the body.  Selenium is
: an antioxidant that has been proven to be a cancer preventative.  Most
: people don't get enough of it.  If what you're saying is right - that
: fluoride washes selenium out of the body -  I guess you can add "the
: selenium deficient" to my above list.
:

It appears that very high levels of fluoride did reduce very high levels
of selenite, but the protection at more relevant levels was not by
lowering the level of selenium.

Please read again:

The citations and abstracts below were taken from Biological
Abstracts on CD-ROM, produced by BIOSIS, the world's largest abstracting
and indexing company in the life sciences. BIOSIS produces over 500,000
citations per year from journals, meetings, books, and patents. Although
BIOSIS makes a diligent effort to provide a complete and accurate
representation of bioscientific and other literature, BIOSIS does not
guarantee the accuracy, adequacy, or completeness of any information.
For more information, contact BIOSIS at 2100 Arch Street, Philadelphia,
PA 19013, USA; telephone 1-800-523-4806 (U.S. and Canada), (215)587-4847
(Worldwide); World Wide Web URL: http://www.***.com/ ; Internet e-mail:

TI: Effect of dietary fluoride on selenite toxicity in the rat.
AU: YU-Q; CERKLEWSKI-F-L; WHANGER-P-D; HEDSTROM-O; RIDLINGTON-J-W
SO: BIOLOGICAL TRACE ELEMENT RESEARCH 34(3): 265-278
PY: 1992
LA: English
AB: Three factorial experiments were conducted to determine if high
dietary fluoride (F) would inhibit selenite toxicity in rats. Initially,
three levels of selenite (0.05, 3, and 5 mg/kg diet) were matched
against three levels of F (2, 75, and 150 mg/kg diet). Fluoride failed
to prevent the depressive effect of selenite on 8-wk cooking.net">food intake and
body wt gain. Selenium (Se) concentration of plasma and kidney and
enzymatic activity of whole {*filter*} glutathione peroxidase (GSH-Px) were
also unaffected by F. Liver Se concentration, however, was slightly
(12%) but significantly (p lt 0.05) reduced when the highest F and Se
levels were combined. Fluoride (150 mg/kg) appeared to reduce liver
selenite toxicity (5 mg/kg). Therefore, further study focussed on liver
histology with treatments that eliminated the middle levels of selenite
and F. Fluoride prevented the hepatic necrosis seen in selenite-toxic
rats. Similar histological lesions were not observed for kidney or
heart. Fluoride partially (26%) but significantly (p lt 0.025) reduced
thiobarbituric-reactive substances in selenite-toxic rats, but there was
no F effect on intracellular distribution of liver Se, glutathione
levels and kidney, or on liver xanthine oxidase activity. Overall, the
protective effect of F on selenite toxicity appears to be confirmed to
liver pathology. The exact mechanism for this effect, however, remains
unclear.

What I hope is that people's individual biochemical needs can be met for
nutrients. Babiuk is trying to say that there is no need for fluoride. I
suggest that for some people it may be part of a sensible toxicity trade
off. Let us budget properly. Truck in relevant fluoride/chlorine/whatever
free bath water for the needy, if bathing is indeed proven good. Does it
not cost minerals from the needy body? Budget again.

: About labeling baby formual.  In the 70's, there was a law that baby
: formual had to have the fluoride filtered out from its water source (but I
: know rules change).
:
: I think the best thing to do is write your local legislators.  Tell them
: to stop putting fluoride into the water.  Let each individual decide the
: amount of fluoride they want - if any.

Some may choose wisely.

There are also arguments that safe drivers should be allowed to drive
faster, police etc. But you can't leave it up to individual people in
general to know their needs and capabilities. Only the educated minority
can do that. Not the politicised majority.

: Carol Kopf

Are you saying that fluoride would prevent a cavity that's become infected
enough to cause death?  Would fluoride cure this?

I think most dental professionals would agree that no amount of fluoride
would save a person who's immune system is so compromised and who's health
is obviously very poor..  Penicillin might save him but fluoride won't.

Carol Kopf

Also you might comment on my long article Ritchie & abrasive toothpaste
decay (Was: Re: Fluoride)

:
: The New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation has investigated the
: cost of providing fluoride tablets to the poor in an effort to produce
: some sort of compromise.  

What would you say about putting calcium fluoride in grain products?

: It's cost is a minute fraction of water
: fluoridation.  The "fluoridators" are not interested.

They know the poor wouldn't take them.

: We are still uncomfortable with this compromise because a bottle of
: fluoride tablets could kill a toddler if ingested all at once.

I don't think so. Even 400 tablets of 1.1 mg Sodium Fluoride (those to be
used in areas where the water fluoride level is less than 0.3 parts per
million) would have a total fluoride dose of around 200 mg. Would a single
dose of that figure kill a toddler?

And these days toddler-proof containers are available for the many toxic
substances in the household.

:
: It is very hard for us to come to a compromise because we know so strongly
: that fluoride is harmful to children.

In order for a body to regulate itself inhibiting as well as activation
of metabolic processes is needed.

An old book "Handbook of Vitamins, Minerals and Hormones" Roman J.Kutsky
(1981) says:

System     Organ   Metalloenzyme/Protein  Cofactors  System Function
Types_______________________________________________________________________

Cofactors  Tissues  Amylase               Mg,Ca,F    Carbohydrase
(F-)       Fat cells  Adenyl cyclase      F, Mg    Cyclic AMP production

Cofactor   Nerves     Cholinesterase      Ca, Mg,      Esterase
inhibitors                                 Co, Mn
(F-)      
           {*filter*}   Hyaluronidase      Fe, Mn       Carbohydrase
           Leukocytes  Enolase            Mg,Mn,Zn     Glycolisis
           Liver       Uricase            Mn,Cu     Purine Metabolism
           Tissues     Phosphoglucomutase  Mg        Transphosphatase
           Pancreas    DNA nucleases      Mg,MN,Ca   DNA digestion
           Pancreas    Ribonuclease       ?          RNA digestion
           Tissues     Acid phosphatase   ?           Phosphate removal
           Tissues     Pyrophophatase II   Mg,Mn     Pyrophosphate splitting

The book also says that it increases wound healing and prevents soft
tissue calcification.

Too much kills, but I wonder how the FDA say it is not essential
(according to Babiuk). Must look for their comments on some of the above.

Lethal limit given as 2000 mg/day.

: I'll assume putting my name at the bottom of your post was an error.
:
: Carol Kopf

Sorry, I should have put mine in. I often leave the other signature there
as a reminder to whom the reply was to. It's common practice.

BTW let me stress that I am not an advocate of water fluoridation. I just
don't believe it to be the evil poison that you are making it out to be.
Also, are you suggesting that topical application of fluoride in the
dental office should be banned as well?

                                    Mike

p.s. If you are so concerned about poisons of dental origin, I believe
that silver amalgams are the soapbox topic at the moment. :)

--
Michael J. Layton, D.D.S.
Truro, N.S.

.  freedom of choice
. mass medication without individual consent
. government forcing something we don't all need
. fluoride makes some people ill
. fluoride may make some people ill
. it wastes tax money

Do you expend as much energy telling those who push fluoridation that it
is wrong.  Maybe, if you did and we worked together to stop fluoridation,
I wouldn't be here "littering" your dental newsgroup with fluoride
messages (well, maybe occassionally.)  Would you rather argue or would you
rather do the right thing?

Carol Kopf

                              Mike

--
Michael J. Layton, D.D.S.
Truro, N.S.

                  Mike

--
Michael J. Layton, D.D.S.
Truro, N.S.