Hardly the point, but anyway. Your list of references, unfortunately,
does little to substantiate your claim. There is NO ARGUMEN that
chelation therapy can be useful in cases of heavy metal poisining,
and in certain diseases of the {*filter*} and kidney which result in the
abnormal accumulation of metals. THIS IS NOT ATHEROSCL{*filter*} DISEASE!

Period.

Have you read any of these articles?

Just the facts, ma'am.  It seems there are more than a few folks on this
sci.med column who want to blather and pontificate without including
their citations.  "Oh, he's a -doctor- and he don't need citations !!!"

What a lot of bullshit that just pisses me off.  And it really pisses
me off to see these people screwing up the medical rights for other people
by just saying "Oh he's a -doctor- all bow down to him !!!"

Throughout this discussion I hope that I've emphasized that there are two
sides and that this investigation is broiled in controversy.  I prefer
this perspective over that proposed by more than a few ideologues who
prejudicing the inquiry with their opinions without considering all
points of view.   You'll see below quite clearly that there are medical
papers on both viewpoints regarding the relationship of chelation therapy
to artheriosclerosis.  And, since when does the heart have nothing to do
with the problems of heavy metal poisoning?  There are some studies that
address that one too.

Any one of the pontificators could have just checked the medical databases
and turned up the studies we see below.  You'll also notice that the
"pulp" books are to be found in your University library - even your University
medical library.  Most of the material on chelation focuses on the
removal of metals and I have chopped it out to save space.  But -- just say
the word and I'll jam your mailbox with it or post all of it here.

The point being -- it is controversial ..  Not cast in concrete, not
black and white ..  How many years of medical school will it take before
you guys soften up out there?

------- Here it is come and get it ---  umm puppy chow citations.
                                                 now it's your turn

5. Lerner N; Blei F; Bierman F; Johnson L; Piomelli S.
     Chelation therapy and cardiac status in older patients with thalassemia
   major.
     American Journal of Pediatric Hematology/Oncology, 1990 Spring,
   12(1):56-60.

12. Wirebaugh SR; Geraets DR.
      Apparent failure of edetic acid chelation therapy for the treatment of
    coronary atherosclerosis.
      Dicp, 1990 Jan, 24(1):22-5.

17. Freeman AP; Giles RW; Berdoukas VA; Talley PA; Murray IP.
      Sustained normalization of cardiac function by chelation therapy in
    thalassaemia major.
      Clinical and Laboratory Haematology, 1989, 11(4):299-307.

18. Kruck TP; McLachlan DR.
      Aluminum as a pathogenic factor in senile dementia of the Alzheimer type:
    ion specific chelation.
      Progress in Clinical and Biological Research, 1989, 317:1155-67.

37. Kachru DN; Khandelwal S; Sharma BL; Tandon SK.
      Chelation in metal intoxication. XXIX: Alpha-mercapto-beta-aryl acrylic
    acids as antidotes to mercury (II) toxicity.
      Pharmacology and Toxicology, 1989 Feb, 64(2):182-4.

46. Olszewer E; Carter JP.
      EDTA chelation therapy in chronic degenerative disease.
      Medical Hypotheses, 1988 Sep, 27(1):41-9.

47. Pelteret RM.
      Iron poisoning, chelation therapy and anaemia [letter].
      South African Medical Journal, 1988 Aug 20, 74(4):191-2.

50. Tielemans C; Collart F; Wens R; Smeyers-Verbeeke J; Van Hooff I; Dratwa M;
    Verbeelen D.
      Anaemia and aluminium chelation therapy in dialysis patients [letter].
      Lancet, 1988 Jul 23, 2(8604):220.

54. McGillem MJ; Mancini GB.
      Inefficacy of EDTA chelation therapy for coronary atherosclerosis
    [letter].
      New England Journal of Medicine, 1988 Jun 16, 318(24):1618-9.

57. Campbell D.
      Improved circulation without chelation [letter].
      New Zealand Medical Journal, 1988 May 25, 101(846):277.

59. Altmann P; Plowman D; Marsh F; Cunningham J.
      Aluminium chelation therapy in dialysis patients: evidence for inhibition
    of haemoglobin synthesis by low levels of aluminium.
      Lancet, 1988 May 7, 1(8593):1012-5.

66. Scott J.
      Chelation therapy--evolution or devolution of a nostrum?
      New Zealand Medical Journal, 1988 Mar 9, 101(841):109-10.

67. Godfrey ME; Agnihotri R; Strauss A.
      Chelation and arteriosclerosis [letter].
      New Zealand Medical Journal, 1988 Mar 9, 101(841):122.

84. Andrews FJ; Morris CJ; Kondratowicz G; Blake DR.
      Effect of iron chelation on inflammatory joint disease.
      Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases, 1987 Apr, 46(4):327-33.

86. Molitoris BA; Alfrey PS; Miller NL; Hasbargen JA; Kaehney WD; Alfrey AC;
    Smith BJ.
      Efficacy of intramuscular and intraperitoneal deferoxamine for aluminum
    chelation.
      Kidney International, 1987 Apr, 31(4):986-91.

91. Hershko C; Link G; Pinson A; Hasin Y; Moreb J.
      Iron loading and chelation as studied in a heart cell culture system.
      Haematologia, 1987, 20(4):247-52.

92. Pippard MJ.
      Iron overload and iron chelation therapy in thalassaemia and sickle cell
    haemoglobinopathies.
      Acta Haematologica, 1987, 78(2-3):206-11.

98. Montgomery MR.
      Advances in medical fraud: chelation therapy replaces Laetrile.
      Journal of the Florida Medical Association, 1986 Sep, 73(9):681-5.

101. Moel DI; Sachs HK; Drayton MA.
       Slow, natural reduction in {*filter*} lead level after chelation therapy for
     lead poisoning in childhood.
       American Journal of Diseases of Children, 1986 Sep, 140(9):905-8.

102. Tandon SK; Flora SJ; Singh S.
       Chelation in metal intoxication XXI: Chelation in lead intoxication
     during vitamin B complex deficiency.
       Bulletin of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, 1986 Sep,
     37(3):317-25.

103. Jones CW; Mays CW; Taylor GN; Lloyd RD; Packer SM.
       Reducing the cancer risk of 239Pu by chelation therapy.
       Radiation Research, 1986 Sep, 107(3):296-306.

105. Rahko PS; Salerni R; Uretsky BF.
       Successful reversal by chelation therapy of congestive cardiomyopathy
     due to iron overload.
       Journal of the American College of Cardiology, 1986 Aug, 8(2):436-40.

106. Schutte JE.
       'Chelation' is a fighting word.
       Journal of the Louisiana State Medical Society, 1986 Aug, 138(8):3-5.

113. Cuthbert JA; Lipsky PE.
       Low-density lipoprotein (LDL) and lymphocyte responses: direct
     suppression by native LDL and indirect inhibition from zinc chelation by
     contaminating EDTA.
       Biochimica et Biophysica Acta, 1986 Apr 15, 876(2):210-9.

118. Flora SJ; Singh S; Tandon SK.
       Chelation in metal intoxication XVIII: Combined effects of thiamine and
     calcium disodium versenate on lead toxicity.
       Life Sciences, 1986 Jan 6, 38(1):67-71.

119. Hewitt CD; Garstang FM; O'Hara M; Metcalfe PJ; Ackrill P; Day JP.
       Copper removal from renal patients using desferrioxamine chelation to
     reduce aluminium overload.
       Acta Pharmacol Toxicol Copenh, 1986, 59 Suppl 7:431-4.

-------------------------------------------chelation -----
4. GODFREY ME.
     EDTA CHELATION AS A TREATMENT OF ARTERIOSCLEROSIS.
     NEW ZEALAND MEDICAL JOURNAL, 1990 APR 11, V103 N887:162-163.

3.
Title:         Chelation therapy in chronic iron overload : a CIBA Medical
                 Horizons symposium, New York City, May 19, 1977 / cosponsored
                 by Cooley's Anemia {*filter*} and Research Foundation for Children
                 ; edited by Edward C. Zaino, Richard H. Roberts. Miami, Fla. :
                 Symposia Specialists, c1977.
               Deferoxamine -- Congresses.
               {*filter*} -- Transfusion -- Complications and sequelae --
                 Congresses.
               Chelation therapy -- Congresses.
Other entries: Zaino, Edward C., 1918-
               Roberts, Richard H.
               Ciba Medical Horizons.
               Cooley's Anemia {*filter*} and Research Foundation for Children.
               Chronic iron overload.

4.
Author:        Cranton, Elmer M.
Title:         Bypassing bypass : the new technique of chelation therapy /
                 Elmer M. Cranton and Arline Brecher ; foreword by H. Richard
                 Casdorph. New York : Stein and Day, 1984.
Notes:         Includes index.
               Bibliography: p. 221-239.
Subjects:      Atherosclerosis -- Treatment.
               Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid -- Therapeutic use.
               Chelation therapy.
               Chelating agents -- Therapeutic use -- Popular works.
               Coronary disease -- Drug therapy -- Popular works.
Other entries: Brecher, Arline.

5.
Author:        Halstead, Bruce W.
Title:         The scientific basis of EDTA chelation therapy / by Bruce W.
                 Halstead. [Colton, CA : Golden Quill Publishers, c1979]
Description:   x, 113 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
Notes:         Includes index.
               Bibliography: p. 95-105.
Subjects:      Atherosclerosis -- Chemotherapy.
               Chelation therapy.
               Ethylenediaminetatraacetic acid -- Physiological effect.

7.
Author:        Kratzer, F. Howard.
Title:         Chelates in nutrition / authors, F. Howard Kratzer, Pran Vohra.
                 Boca Raton, Fla. : CRC Press, c1986.
Description:   169 p. : ill. ; 26 cm.
Notes:         Includes bibliographies and index.
Subjects:      Minerals in human nutrition.
               Chelates -- Physiological effect.
               Chelation therapy.

8.
Author:        McDonagh, E. W. (Edward W.), 1932-
Title:         Chelation can cure / E.W. McDonagh. Kansas City, Mo. : Platinum
                 Pen Pub., c1983.
Description:   215 p. ; 22 cm.
Notes:         Includes bibliographical references.
Subjects:      Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid -- Therapeutic use.
               Chelation therapy.
Call numbers:  UCB   PubHealth RM666.E845 M34 1983

10.
Author:        Soffer, Alfred.
Title:         Chelation therapy, by Alfred Soffer. Co-authors: Maynard
                 Chenoweth [and others]. Springfield, Ill., Thomas [1964]
Description:   ix, 163 p. illus. 24 cm.
Notes:         Includes bibliographies.
Subjects:      Chelating Agents.
Call numbers:  UCD   HealthSci QV290 S63
...

read more »

-----

Dr Banks, you take such a callous attitude.  This poor fellow
just shot his foot off and you are critizing his aim.  Can't you
see the fellow is bleeding to death?  (Or at least, his argument
is about to die from his own research.)

Seriously, I rarely engage someone in debate who turns around and
does my research for me, while failing to uncover any evidence
for his own stance.  For such an obliging opponent, you should be
grateful.

Russell

Did you look at any of the papers you cited?  Most of them were about
chelation in thalassemia or heavy metals, not atherosclerosis.  These
are well-known legitimate uses of chelation.  Many of the others were
those you were demanding from Craig, i.e. those citing evidence
*against* chelation.  Where are the papers that cite the evidence
for chelation in atherosclerosis?  WOuld you please post only those
and not just everything the medline search turns up?

        As Nick Danger said, "Thank you, you just saved me a lot of
investigative work."  If you edit out all the references involving
metal overdose or editorials, and omit the monographs, all that you're
left with are the following three references:

        They translate to:
        1. It apparently doesn't work.
        2. It really doesn't work.
and     3. Some people get better on their own anyway.

        Not exactly a ringing endor{*filter*}t.  And the best thing is that
these are references I dug up. A proponent posted them and basically
destroyed his own argument. Moments like these are to be savored.

--
                Craig Werner   (future MD/PhD, 4.5 years down, 2.5 to go)

              (1935-14E Eastchester Rd., Bronx NY 10461, 212-931-2517)
           "... you can do anything you want, but not everything you want."

Oh, that's interesting.  How was that fact established?
Do you have a reference for that, or did you make it up
just now?

"Thalassemia" is a mythical country referring to whole body analysis.
I doubt that a schitzophrenic could understand the meaning of the word.

Aha.  At last one of -your- citations!!!  Thanks a lot in retrospect!!!

You keep trying to put your words in my mouth.  This time, read my lips:
  (a) I do not hold that there is a definitive distinction between the
         so-called "legitimate" uses and "as-yet-unproved" uses.
  (b) I do not maintain that metals toxicity is unrelated to heart
         complications.
  (c) I presented articles in an unbiased manner which refer both to the
         successful and unsuccessful uses of EDTA chelation for heart
         patients.  My view, unlike yours, is balanced.
  (d) I included the putative "pulps" because they were found in a
         University -medical- library.

Let's see you trot out your "balanced" references.  I don't think you can.
BTW, M.D.s (generally) do -not- have the reasoning capabilities of PhDs.
:=:

Nope.  This -is- the point.  Probably too acute for you....

Why don't you read the damn article first?  I claim only that the issue is
up for grabs amidst controversy.  Articles are published on both sides.
"Unproven" is -not- the same as "disproven."  Again, too subtle for MDs.

Hey, guy, results don't wait for our explanations.

Sure.  Did you read -all- of them before volunteering your opinion?

:=:

Hey.  -One- body, get it?  -One- mind, get it?  -One- mind&body, get it?

Didn't I mention that I have no axe to grind?

The papers -for- were mixed up with the papers -against-.  Read all of them
before replying here, please.  I will -not- post a biased list!!  I will
post a balanced view.  Anybody taking issue with a balanced view?

:=:

-----

By this reasoning, does one give antibiotics to a person
suffering from an intracranial aneurism?  There are, after all,
many papers on the successful use of antibiotics.  Despite this,
there is no evidence that they are useful in the treatment of
aneurisms, and anyone who refers to the many papers on their
successful use to treat *other* diseases is throwing out a red
herring.

It is a glaring error to think that because we each have one
body, that which brings health to a person suffering in one way
will bring health to a person suffering in another.  

Unless Mr Boscole claims that artherosclerosis is caused by metal
poisoning, his inclusion of papers that do not address
artherosclerosis reflects a bias, and a very unreasonable one at
that.  A much more sensible list would omit the papers on the
treatment of metal poisoning, but include seminal papers on the
etiology and suspected causes of artherosclerosis, even though
they do not discuss chelation.

Russell

Nobody is thinking that here.  Please focus on the discussion.
  (1) Controversial medical results.
  (2) Rights of patients to choose alternative health care.

Not causation -- perhaps some correlation.  This is a scientific approach,
remember, not voodoo AMA witchcraft and shamanism.

If sensibility is your aim, why, let's play chess !!

:=:

----------------------------------------------------

Hahah - what a dyslexic you are - you are cracking me up.

17. Freeman AP; Giles RW; Berdoukas VA; Talley PA; Murray IP.
      Sustained normalization of cardiac function by chelation therapy in
      thalassaemia major.
      Clinical and Laboratory Haematology, 1989, 11(4):299-307.

46. Olszewer E; Carter JP.
      EDTA chelation therapy in chronic degenerative disease.
      Medical Hypotheses, 1988 Sep, 27(1):41-9.

67. Godfrey ME; Agnihotri R; Strauss A.
      Chelation and arteriosclerosis [letter].
      New Zealand Medical Journal, 1988 Mar 9, 101(841):122.

103. Jones CW; Mays CW; Taylor GN; Lloyd RD; Packer SM.
       Reducing the cancer risk of 239Pu by chelation therapy.
       Radiation Research, 1986 Sep, 107(3):296-306.

105. Rahko PS; Salerni R; Uretsky BF.
       Successful reversal by chelation therapy of congestive cardiomyopathy
       due to iron overload.
       Journal of the American College of Cardiology, 1986 Aug, 8(2):436-40.

4. GODFREY ME.
     EDTA CHELATION AS A TREATMENT OF ARTERIOSCLEROSIS.
     NEW ZEALAND MEDICAL JOURNAL, 1990 APR 11, V103 N887:162-163.

Right.  And the fact that you might be attached to a medical school is also
completely irrelevant.

Gosh -- it takes one to know one -- that's what Roger Rabbit would say ..

:=:

Aesop:>>Let's see you trot out your "balanced" references.
Aesop:>>BTW, M.D.s (generally) do -not- have the reasoning capabilities of PhDs.

Sure -- here's how:  (a) AMA MDs (some of them) confuse "unproven" with
                                                       " disproven."
                     (b) Phds (philosophy) generally do not.

:=: