LSD and Manic depression. 
Author Message
 LSD and Manic depression.

The other day in a workshop on Bhuddism, I heard that lsd can cause
manic-deppression[bi-polar personality].  Because of my lack of faith in
the people who told me this, I'm wondering if anyone out there has any
scientific insight into this matter, I mean real results from real
experiments.  No anecdotal evidence please.

Thanx in advance,
Rob "Money is not our God" Knapp
"...And Then the world will be as one." - John Lennon
"... The problem is you, so whacha gonna do?" - The Sex Pistols
"... The stars seem very different today."  - David Bowie
LEGALIZE
[MNIBG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]



Wed, 25 Aug 1993 03:15:26 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.

Quote:
>The other day in a workshop on Bhuddism, I heard that lsd can cause
>manic-deppression[bi-polar personality].  Because of my lack of faith in
>the people who told me this, I'm wondering if anyone out there has any
>scientific insight into this matter, I mean real results from real
>experiments.  No anecdotal evidence please.

What do you mean by "real experiments"?  C'mon.

This is what can be said fairly reliably.  LSD can precipitate
psychoses in already unstable or predisposed individuals, but
the great majority of people who have experimented with the drug
short-term do not demonstrate any evidence of mental illness.
I haven't come across any studies which would indicate that it causes
bipolar disorder or unipolar depression.  That is, this is not
a syndrome which comes to mind when the term "LSD" is mentioned.

--
Steve Dyer




Wed, 25 Aug 1993 04:30:21 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.

Quote:
>The other day in a workshop on Bhuddism, I heard that lsd can cause
>manic-deppression[bi-polar personality].  Because of my lack of faith in
>the people who told me this, I'm wondering if anyone out there has any
>scientific insight into this matter, I mean real results from real
>experiments.  No anecdotal evidence please.

LSD can't *cause* an organic psychiatric condition like being a bipolar,
but it might *trigger* a {*filter*} episode.  Also, people with organic
conditions (eg, hyperactivity, history of psychosis, schizophrenia)
may be especially sensitive (I've known a few, and they are, sorry this is
anecdotal) to such {*filter*}.

I would take what a lecturer on buddism says about psychopharmacology
with a grain of salt, esp since he might have a  hidden agenda, eg,
chemicals have hazards but my philosophy doesn't....
--
David A. Honig

Quotas are for files, not people.



Fri, 27 Aug 1993 04:18:54 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.

Quote:
>The other day in a workshop on Bhuddism, I heard that lsd can cause
>manic-deppression[bi-polar personality].  Because of my lack of faith in
>the people who told me this, I'm wondering if anyone out there has any
>scientific insight into this matter, I mean real results from real
>experiments.  No anecdotal evidence please.

>Thanx in advance,

There is a large literature attesting to psychotic reactions to
LSD use, as is easily shown with a quick Psychinfo Database
search, but the search I just did shows NO articles relating
Bipolar Affective Disorder (Manic-Depression) to LSD use.
Also there is no apparent logical reason to relate Bipolar
Disorder with LSD or any other psychoactive drug.

Here is one study of a great many on the subject:

 AUTHOR:    Cohen, Sidney                                                
 AUTHOR AFFILIATION:                                                          
            U California School of Medicine, Neuropsychiatric  
            Inst, Los Angeles                                                    
 TITLE:     LSD: The varieties of psychotic experience.                  
 SOURCE:    Journal of Psychoactive {*filter*}  1985 Oct-Dec Vol 17(4)
              291-296
 ABSTRACT:  Discusses the contributing factors (e.g., preexisting        
            character structure, insecurity, negative experience,      
            current mood and stress level) and prevention and
            treatment of acute and prolonged psychotic reactions
            to LSD. (10 ref)    
--

P.O. Box 6053         |



Fri, 27 Aug 1993 11:56:34 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.

Quote:
> The other day in a workshop on Bhuddism, I heard that lsd can cause
> manic-deppression[bi-polar personality].  Because of my lack of faith in
> the people who told me this, I'm wondering if anyone out there has any
> scientific insight into this matter, I mean real results from real
> experiments.  No anecdotal evidence please.

There is no evidence that LSD is capable of causing such a personality
change. Although your emotions can get on a bit of a rollercoaster while
it's active, none of these changes is permanent. This knowledge comes from
controlled tests using standard personality measurements.


Sat, 28 Aug 1993 11:10:14 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.

writes:

Quote:
>There is no evidence that LSD is capable of causing such a personality
>change. Although your emotions can get on a bit of a rollercoaster while
>it's active, none of these changes is permanent. This knowledge comes from
>controlled tests using standard personality measurements.

This is worded too dogmatically.  As I understand it, you are right that there
is "no evidence that LSD is capable of CAUSING such a personality change;"
causality is difficult to prove.  However, there have been a fair amount
of cases in which people being treated as psychotics have been found to
have used LSD before their psychotic symptoms manifested.  This disorder
is symptomatologically indistinguishable from real schizophrenia.  This
is in contrast to PCP-induced psychosis which can be distinguished from
schizophrenia in a variety of ways.  Thus, LSD patients and schizophrenics
have statistically equivalent numbers of subsequent rehospitalizations,
and perform equivalently on cognitive exams at initial hospitalization and
in follow ups a few years later.  Because the "LSD psychosis" is not
distinguishable from non-drug- induced psychosis, we have reasonable evidence
to conclude that LSD was not the sole cause of psychosis.  Instead, it
would seem that the drug brought on the problems in vulnerable individuals.
Interestingly, the rate of parental {*filter*}ism was found to be much higher
in LSD patients than in other patients or in the general population by one
study (Vardy and Kay, Arch-Gen-Psych, 1983 40(8): 877-83).

"LSD psychosis" is poor choice of words, I realize.

--Matt Funkchick



Sun, 29 Aug 1993 03:06:27 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.


<writes:
<
<>There is no evidence that LSD is capable of causing such a personality
<>change. Although your emotions can get on a bit of a rollercoaster while
<>it's active, none of these changes is permanent. This knowledge comes from
<>controlled tests using standard personality measurements.
<
<This is worded too dogmatically.  As I understand it, you are right that there
<is "no evidence that LSD is capable of CAUSING such a personality change;"
<causality is difficult to prove.  However, there have been a fair amount
<of cases in which people being treated as psychotics have been found to
<have used LSD before their psychotic symptoms manifested.

And a lot of them have eaten French Fries, too. Do French Fries cause bipolar
affective disorder? By the way, the term "psychosis" is in disrepute now, since
attempting to group depressives, bipolars and schizophrenics together doesn't
make sense.

< This disorder
<is symptomatologically indistinguishable from real schizophrenia.

I hope by this you are referring to LSD-intoxication being indistinguishable
from schizophrenia, since bipolar affective disorder bears no resemblance at
all to schizophrenia. (Indeed, bipolar disorder is often difficult to diagnose
because the victims learn to compensate, in effect to "pass", without even
knowing that they are doing it.)



Sun, 29 Aug 1993 11:41:31 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.

Quote:
Beste) writes:


>>                             ...However, there have been a fair amount
>><of cases in which people being treated as psychotics have been found to
><have used LSD before their psychotic symptoms manifested.
>And a lot of them have eaten French Fries, too. Do French Fries cause bipolar
>affective disorder?

If the acute symptoms of eating French Fries resembled bipolar affective
disorder and the disorder had first manifested itself shortly after eating
Fries for a substantial number of patients, I'd look into whether there
was something funny about those Fries.

Quote:
>                 By the way, the term "psychosis" is in disrepute now, since
>attempting to group depressives, bipolars and schizophrenics together doesn't
>make sense.

Ok.

Quote:
>< This disorder
><is symptomatologically indistinguishable from real schizophrenia.

>I hope by this you are referring to LSD-intoxication being indistinguishable
>from schizophrenia, since bipolar affective disorder bears no resemblance at
>all to schizophrenia. (Indeed, bipolar disorder is often difficult to diagnose
>because the victims learn to compensate, in effect to "pass", without even
>knowing that they are doing it.)

No, I was discussing the schizophrenic-like reaction which has been
documented as lasting well after acute LSD-intoxication (for some small
percentage of LSD-users).  Because there is so little difference between
acute schizophrenics and LSD patients, it seems probable that either the
LSD-use triggered the psychiatric problems or that the LSD-use was
symptomatic of the beginnings of schizophrenia (and may even have been
an attempt at self-medication).

--Matt Funkchick



Tue, 31 Aug 1993 03:17:35 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.

Quote:


><writes:
><
>And a lot of them have eaten French Fries, too. Do French Fries cause bipolar
>affective disorder? By the way, the term "psychosis" is in disrepute now, since
>attempting to group depressives, bipolars and schizophrenics together doesn't
>make sense.

>< This disorder
><is symptomatologically indistinguishable from real schizophrenia.

>I hope by this you are referring to LSD-intoxication being indistinguishable
>from schizophrenia, since bipolar affective disorder bears no resemblance at
>all to schizophrenia. (Indeed, bipolar disorder is often difficult to diagnose
>because the victims learn to compensate, in effect to "pass", without even
>knowing that they are doing it.)

Hmm.  The term "psychosis" is not in disrepute, although disorders are
classified differently than they used to be.  In fact, Bipolar
Disorder is classified as a Mood Disorder, not a psychosis.  BUT,
there is such as diagnosis, and a not uncommon one, as Bipolar
Disorder with psychotic features.  And there is a diagnosis of
Schzoaffective disorder.  Both of these diagnoses indicate that
sometimes bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are hard to differentiate
in individual cases.  In many cases it is not true that "biploar
affective disorder bears no resemblance at all to schizophrenia."

It is also unture that "biploar disorder is often difficult to diagnose
because the victims learn to compensate, in effect to 'pass',
without even knowing they are doing it.

There are hypomanic disorder and cyclothymic disorder which basically
are less severe forms of bipolar disorder, and in these states
individuals often are unaware of their problem, although it soon
becomes obvious to others.

--

P.O. Box 6053         |



Wed, 01 Sep 1993 00:58:31 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.

Quote:
>causality is difficult to prove.

No shit. So difficult, in fact, that you completely fail to prove
it in the rest of your post. To wit:

Quote:
>However, there have been a fair amount
>of cases in which people being treated as psychotics have been found to
>have used LSD before their psychotic symptoms manifested.

And, I bet, there are a "fair amount" of cases in which people being
treated as psychotics have been found NOT to have used LSD before
their psychotic symptoms manifested. Further, there are probably
a fair amount of cases in which psychotics were found to have used
Crest toothpaste before their symptoms manifested. And mayonnaise.
And red meat.

Here, I believe, is your syllogism:

a) Some psycotics ingest LSD sometime prior to going nuts.

b) Therefore, LSD makes people psychotic.

This is clearly hoohah, so may I propose the following rephrasing,
that, while certainly less dramatic, is also far more accurate:

a) Psychotics go nuts.

b) Some psychotics ingest LSD.

c) A+B are unrelated to one another.
--
***** DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed herein are my own. Duh. Like you'd
ever be able to find a company (or, for that matter, very many people) with
opinions like mine.
              -- "When I want your opinion, I'll read it in your entrails."



Thu, 02 Sep 1993 07:21:37 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.

Quote:

>>causality is difficult to prove.
>>However, there have been a fair amount
>>of cases in which people being treated as psychotics have been found to
>>have used LSD before their psychotic symptoms manifested.

>And, I bet, there are a "fair amount" of cases in which people being
>treated as psychotics have been found NOT to have used LSD before
>their psychotic symptoms manifested. Further, there are probably
>a fair amount of cases in which psychotics were found to have used
>Crest toothpaste before their symptoms manifested. And mayonnaise.
>Here, I believe, is your syllogism:
>a) Some psycotics ingest LSD sometime prior to going nuts.
>b) Therefore, LSD makes people psychotic.
>This is clearly hoohah, so may I propose the following rephrasing,
>that, while certainly less dramatic, is also far more accurate:
>a) Psychotics go nuts.
>b) Some psychotics ingest LSD.
>c) A+B are unrelated to one another.

Falsch. The reasoning is as follows:

(a) LSD temporarily disrupts the brain in much the same way as psychosis.
(b) A substantial number of people become psychotic upon using LSD
     (and then don't recover the way normal LSD users do).

You missed the connection in *time* between LSD use and onset of psychosis;
also the similarity in *symptoms* (and presumably underlying neurochemistry)
between LSD and psychosis.

If a substantial number of people became psychotic immediately upon
starting to use Crest toothpaste, then Crest would probably be banned.
With LSD the appearance of danger is even greater because LSD produces
psychotic symptoms, temporarily, in *everyone*.

Admittedly, there are many people on the net who believe, as a point of
dogma, "All illegal {*filter*} are harmless," and reject any evidence to the
contrary.
--
---------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Covington, Assistant to the Director
Artificial Intelligence Programs
The University of Georgia, Athens, GA 30602



Thu, 02 Sep 1993 11:24:40 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.


Fri, 19 Jun 1992 00:00:00 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.

claim of a flawed syllogism:

Quote:
> Falsch. The reasoning is as follows:

> (a) LSD temporarily disrupts the brain in much the same way as psychosis.

False.

Quote:
> (b) A substantial number of people become psychotic upon using LSD
>      (and then don't recover the way normal LSD users do).

Also false, unless you're redefining "psychosis" to suit your purpose.

Quote:
> You missed the connection in *time* between LSD use and onset of psychosis;

(I don't think Jim missed a time connection between LSD use and some
unusual state of the brain.)

Quote:
> also the similarity in *symptoms* (and presumably underlying neurochemistry)
> between LSD and psychosis.

Jim might well have missed that part, since there is no such similarity.

Quote:
> Admittedly, there are many people on the net who believe, as a point of
> dogma, "All illegal {*filter*} are harmless," and reject any evidence to the
> contrary.

This is the flag that says your posting belongs in talk.politics.{*filter*}--
as if it weren't already obvious from your misuse of the term psychosis to
make a non-medical statement.  You've now set up a straw man argument to
attack your opponents (as opposed to your opponents' arguments).
--

   ...Relax...don't worry...have a homebrew.


Fri, 03 Sep 1993 05:56:18 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.

Quote:


>claim of a flawed syllogism:
>> Falsch. The reasoning is as follows:

>> (a) LSD temporarily disrupts the brain in much the same way as psychosis.
>False.

   Really?  I thought hallucinations were a symptom of LSD intoxication,
   and of some psychotic disorders; also that when LSD first came out,
   experts remarked on the similarity between LSD intoxication and some
   psychotic disorders, hoping LSD would help to explain the neurochemistry
   of those disorders.

Quote:

>> (b) A substantial number of people become psychotic upon using LSD
>>      (and then don't recover the way normal LSD users do).

>Also false, unless you're redefining "psychosis" to suit your purpose.

   This was a plank in *his* argument which I was paraphrasing.
   I myself have no evidence to cite. I thought he did.

Quote:
>> Admittedly, there are many people on the net who believe, as a point of
>> dogma, "All illegal {*filter*} are harmless," and reject any evidence to the
>> contrary.

>This is the flag that says your posting belongs in talk.politics.{*filter*}--
>as if it weren't already obvious from your misuse of the term psychosis to
>make a non-medical statement.  You've now set up a straw man argument to
>attack your opponents (as opposed to your opponents' arguments).

   There you go...
--
-------------------------------------------------------
Michael A. Covington | Artificial Intelligence Programs
The University of Georgia  |  Athens, GA 30602   U.S.A.
-------------------------------------------------------


Fri, 03 Sep 1993 09:18:24 GMT
 LSD and Manic depression.

Quote:
>>> (a) LSD temporarily disrupts the brain in much the same way as psychosis.
>>False.
>   Really?  I thought hallucinations were a symptom of LSD intoxication,
>   and of some psychotic disorders; also that when LSD first came out,
>   experts remarked on the similarity between LSD intoxication and some
>   psychotic disorders, hoping LSD would help to explain the neurochemistry
>   of those disorders.

Yeah, but that was almost 40 years ago, and they were misguided.
The visual effects produced by the administration of LSD do not
at all resemble the hallucinations of schizophrenia.  The two
syndromes really aren't the same at all, and it would be mistaken
to try to draw too many conclusions from the surface similarities.

--
Steve Dyer




Fri, 03 Sep 1993 10:02:40 GMT
 
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