Well, since it has been a thread, and you *are* following up.. I guess hmm..
you aren't in a postion to complain.. unless.... oh gad.. you are another
problem child.

Yes, but the original comment to which I replied is conveniently removed.
Taken out of context and used to paint a person in a bad light hmm.. could
this be... are you perhaps a journalist or just looking for a flame war.
The original comment suggested that physicians should *never* refer to
a chiropractor, just to "specialists".  Aren't they specialized?  Aren't
they a health-care-professional?  Did you *read* the whole post to which
you reply, or just the "juicy parts"?

This may happen in the US.. I don't claim to know what the practices are
down there, but it doesn't happen much up here, I know many chiro's and
they certainly don't practice quackery like this...  ahh the wonders of
a free-market eh?  Caveat Emptor.  Perhaps there is more regulation here,
I'm not sure.  

Yes, I get it... and if you check my .sig, you'll see I have *some* medical
training myself.  I also have not mentioned pre-med... perhaps you would
like to mention some of your not-so-obvious training on which you base these
wonderfully INFLAMMATORY statements.  Don't be so pompous or obvious when
trolling flame bait.  

As for the spine, yes there is a *limited* amount of
normal motion in between the vertebrae, however there is also misalignments
as in *any other joint*.  A misalignment of a joint shouldn't be ignored
or should we just tell Mr. Smith that the dislocated shoulder can stay that
way, it really isn't impeding function?  Do you think that with the vertebral
facets misaligned and possibly the disk pinched that the function and
ROM of the vertebral joint is normal!!??  Do you think it will suffice?
Will it return itself to position?  How about a dislocated shoulder?
(It's mostly cartilage, ligaments and tendon.. not an actual bone on bone
 joint... if any, it should be able to realign spontaneously)

Off the subject.. proper form is to bend at the knees for lifting *AND*
things like tying the shoes, not bending like a willow.. the gravitational
pull on the body puts excessive strain on the Lumbar region of the spine.
Not such recent medical knowledge...  just FYI.  Wouldn't want to see you
responsible for recommending poor body mechanics and posture.

Oh.. now the big words come out.. (oops.. trapped by the flame bait...
how many dictionaries did *this* take..) :-)

As I understand, or at least the the chiropractors that I have
dealt with don't manipulate for a period after injury for this
specific reason.  You have to let the musculature equilibrate
before any of this does any good.  However, just because the
muscles find an equilibrated position does not mean that all
is well vis a vis someone with a dislocated ankle.  The resting
position becomes more comfortable than right after injury, but
it isn't fully comfortable (if ever possible) and certainly most
would agree that it should be repositioned.

I have heard that their association has been trying to get rid of the
quacks and clean up the profession.  (yes, it meets the technical
requirements of a profession: Training, Certification, Self-Governing
body)

Credentials, please?  Granted, physical therapists are doing wonders,
but again, there is a reason for specialization.. should the therapists
be responsible for it all?  In addition to this, if doctors only claimed
to be able to do what current medical training or more accurately current
medical practice consists of they would not be able to call themselves
doctors by the Oxford definition.  It includes *preventative* actions
toward diseases and disorders of the body.  How many do you know that
practice proactive *preventative* medicine?  Not that I think we should
burn all doctors at the stake.. they do serve a useful purpose.

Research and Credentials please?  Do you also have bigotry and prejudice
against racial groups or just chiropractors and other health-care
personnel... perhaps EMT's.. I don't think you are even vaguely aware of
the training involved.

You'd better check out the programmes before you get in trouble....
If'n I remember correctly:
They need 1-2 years at a normal, regular university in biology, chem,
physics etc. then 2 years at a chiropractic college.  I have seen some
of the course content sheets.  They {*filter*}y well do take a lot more A&P than
most nursing faculties I have looked at, and I *HAVE* looked.  What the
_bleep_ have you done besides create yourself a {*filter*}y big attitude.

(* These comments apply locally.. they may not extrapolate elsewhere *)
More comments on this.. there are other people who call themselves
Doctors.... take for instance Dental Surgeons..  and.. hmm.. interesting
point.. what category do dentists fit in?  The system *demands* that
anyone performing procedures deemed "practice of medicine" must be a
doctor or under the supervision of a doctor.  All nursing staff, technical
staff, therapy staff etc. are bound to act only on a doctor's orders. We
have relaxed the definition of "supervision" somewhat to allow the current
system.  Even Paramedics are on standing orders provided by medical control
(read doctor) such that he/she (medical control) is responsible for the
actions of the field personnel. (supervision).. etc.  It is *ILLEGAL* for
anyone else to "practice medicine."  One of the definitions is invasive
procedures, not just subcutaneously, but including intubation etc.

Talk about your basic monopoly etc... but it forces others to declare
themselves "Doctors" (and I might add get legal approval to do so...
you elected the Gov't... if they don't represent you... too bad.. again
Caveat Emptor..) to get the almighty approval.

In closing... it wasn't all that long ago that doctors *were* practicing
questionable procedures like trephining to "let the demons go".  (Only
a couple of hundred years... if that)  We see this as quackery today....
Are there other things that went the other way?  Sure.. nobody thought
there would be a use for a telephone.. etc..

Hmm.. perhaps we are being a bit ethnocentric along with a good measure
of egocentricity thrown in.  Calm down and grab a bit more mature grasp
of yourself.. please.

'Nuff... I have been sucked in by the flame bait enough for one night...
 I need to do some deep breathing exercises.. (Oh.. no.. I shouldn't do
 that, it wasn't prescribed by a doctor...)

PPS: In case you think I'm totally against doctors.. note the paragraph
 with the pre-med in it...  I'm not.. but I'm also not going to hold them
 up as gods or perfect examples.  I have met poor examples and good examples
 in all kinds of professions and medicine is no exception.  Unfortunately
 with our current system, the focus is strongly taken away from the patient
 in lieu of monetary and legal requirements throughout the system and this
 has led to a perceived decline in "health care" per se.

 Just my $0.02... reduced to $0.0186 purchasing power by the GST.

 Patrick
--
===========================| Land Line +1 403 286 9188


Calgary, Alberta, Canada   | UUCP:...keyword!calgary!pixel!belay!buick

Just what is it that you claim chiropractic can do that doesn't fall under the
definition of physical therapy?

Actually, every doctor with whom I've dealt in the past several years does just
that.  It appears to me that you have a tendency to deal with quacks.  That
WOULD tend to explain your support for chiropractic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.

Please! The spine is *not* like "any other joint". Get an anatomy text and
read about it. Disk disease, such as you mention, is a problem with the
disk which may be primary or secondary to posterior longitudinal
ligament degeneration but it is not due to misalignment of the
verterbrae and cannot
and should not be treated by mechanical "manipulation". Furthermore, anatomic
and flouroscopic studies have consistently failed to demonstrate the
range of motion of the normal spine to which you refer.

Note that I am *not* saying that some patients don't feel better after
chiropractic manipulation. But the "theory" that you posted simply doesn't
fit the facts. And in many cases, belief in it may actually harm the patient.

[very much]

The problem with chiropractors (or manual therapists, as some of them are
called), is that as a group the cover the whole range from dangerous
quacks to more or less orthodox physiotherapists.
For some kinds of pain in the back or the neck it doesn't make too
much difference whether it is treated (massaged) by a physiotherapist
or a "manual therapists"; the doctor's advice to take it easy or
placebo therapy is only marginally (though significantly) worse, I
believe.

From what I remember, those mysterious dislocations are in itself
not so serious.  There seems to be no reliable connection between
various anatomical irregularities of the vertebrae and the discs
between them and actual complaints.  Reliable research in this
field is largely missing.  Recently it was reported that 1800
clinical investigations on the effectiveness of physiotherapy
were all done so poorly (from modern standpoint), that no conclusion
whatsoever was possible.

JWN