Maybe {*filter*} should be treated like Accutane. For those of you
unfamiliar with it, Accutane is a teratogenic substance, much like
{*filter*}. Women who wish to use it must be tested and found not pregnant
and must be on contraceptives for the duration.

(this I know because a friend of mine did it)

--
        The best way to preserve your RKBA is to vote Libertarian.

Maybe {*filter*} should be banned entirely because men who drink it may have
abnormalities in their {*filter*}, and also might cause cost to the taxpayer in
lost work time, health benefits, etc. etc.  

So, where do we stop?

Sounds reasonable... aside from some medicinal advantages, do people really
need {*filter*}?

Wherever the rich people decide we should.

papa sm00sh
--

The aggegrate USIMR is worse than many other countries.  The white
USIMR is not much worse than many other white countries like our
neighbors to the north with their much bragged about socialized medicine.

--
        The best way to preserve your RKBA is to vote Libertarian.

   The aggegrate USIMR is worse than many other countries.  The white
   USIMR is not much worse than many other white countries like our
   neighbors to the north with their much bragged about socialized medicine.

Is this supposed to make us feel better?  Try again.
--

Visix Software Inc.                                     ...!uunet!visix!amanda
--
"If you do not tell the truth about yourself you cannot tell it about
 other people."            --{*filter*}ia Woolf

|> So, where do we stop?

I personally think we should have killed Hamurabi(sp?) and nipped this
law stuff in the bud.

d'baba Duane M. Hentrich        ...!hplabs!oliveb!tymix!baba

Claimer: These are only opinions since everything I know is wrong.
Copyright notice: If you're going to copy it, copy it right.

is the fact that the WHITE infant mortality rate is approximately the same as
in other countries supposed to excuse the fact that the non-white rate is
higher?  i dont buy it.  it simply means that if you don't have the money for
pre-natal care, as many non-whites AND many whites do not, your baby can die
for all society cares.  doesnt make it any better to me.  

socialized medicine has its drawbacks, but it at least helps even out infant
mortality rates between middle- and upper-class women, and poor women.

also, my atlas shows the u.s. having only one neighbor to the north.

-cindy kandolf

 trondheim, norway

This assumes that lack of pre-natal care caused by lack of money is the
cause of the problem.  This MIGHT be true -- bit it needs to be
demonstrated.  {*filter*} and tobacco use is MUCH higher among blacks than
whites in the U.S., and not surprisingly, both are associated with
infant mortality problems.  That's not a problem of lack of money,
but of too much.  Anyone that has money to drink or smoke, clearly
isn't poor.

It does?  Based on what?  Is it possible that countries with socialized
medicine are also dramatically more homogenous than the U.S.?  Does
anyone have infant mortality rates for Canadians by race?

--
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid,pixar,tekbspa}!optilink!cramer
You must be kidding!  No company would hold opinions like mine!
"That the People have a right to keep and bear Arms;" -- from New York's
request for a bill of Rights, July 26, 1788.

As far as I can tell, Canadians are almost all white or honorable
whites. They like to brag that they are not all white, they don't
tell you the non-whites are the yellows. This is based on half an
hour in two libraries trying to look up racial stats for Canada.

You can also walk down the streets of cities like Vancouver and
come to the same conclusion.

--
        The best way to preserve your RKBA is to vote Libertarian.

What it says is that you can't compare apples and oranges,
socialized medicine for whites and honorable whites vs
non-socialized medicine for whites and blacks, and conclude
socialized medicine is better.

You're just making a wild claim without any justification.

--
        The best way to preserve your RKBA is to vote Libertarian.

the idea that minority women are more likely to have a stillborn child because
they are more likely to smoke, drink, use {*filter*} or whatever, strikes me as a
simple rewriting of the old "its their own fault"/"they bring it on themselves"
argument.  people used to say blacks were poor because they were "shiftless".
now some people seem to feel jusitified in saying more black babies die at
birth or shortly after because of what their mothers did.  why cant people
admit that "the system" doesnt work for everyone?  why is it so hard to admit
that society has a role in these things??

if you can find me statistics to prove that the larger number of early infant
deaths among u.s. non-whites is because of the mothers behavior during
pregnancy, ill gladly eat my words.  until then, i will continue to believe
you just want to wash white societys hands of any guilt.

-cindy kandolf

 trondheim, norway

what is an "honorable white"?

okay, perhaps i cant do a strict comparison, because the socialized medicine
scheme i am most familiar with is norways, and norway is something close to
99% white.  nonetheless, the infant mortality rates and life exectancy
rates, both of which are partially determined by a persons access to medical
care, are much more level than in the states, between groups at different
income levels.   or are you implying that blacks are somehow "medically"
different than whites?

i have experience now with both the u.s. and the norwegian system of care.
permit me to digress into a personal story which does not directly apply to
infant mortality but may help you understand my enthusiasm for norways
socialized system.  for about a year before i left the states i had clusters
of terrible sinus headaches, i mean so bad i couldnt see straight, and
sometimes could not walk.  i went to the infirmary at my college (which was
free, because i had paid my health services fee), but they could not determine
what was causing them.  i would have to go to an ear, nose, and throat
specialist, they said.  that of course was not covered by my fee, and there
was no way i could afford it.  no way my parents could afford it either, they
said when i asked.  so i just learned to put up with the headaches, since
over-the-counter medicines only helped sometimes.  then i got married and
moved here to norway.  i made an appointment for a medical check up, and to
get a birth control prescription.  my norwegian wasnt very good at the time,
so my husband offered to come with me to help with the language.  while there,
he brought up the subject of my headaches.  the GP listened to the whole story,
and said "i ll put you in touch with a specialist at the hospital."  she wrote
down the specialists name, office adress, and phone number for us, then wrote
out my prescription.  cost of that visit, about US$12.  we visited the
specialist, cost including a seried of face and head x-rays a few days later,
US$20!  well, the problem hasnt been totally solved yet, partially because the
headaches have not appeared since december and he wants to examine me while
i am having one before he makes a final diagnosis.  but the wonderful thing
for me is to know that i can afford to have this problem fixed.  please dont
try to belittle these headaches if you havent experienced them yourself.  they
take over your whole life when they happen.

i am certainly not trying to argue that the socialized system is without
flaws.  the waits for non-emergency help can be long, though not as bad as
the horror stories (which i do not know for certain are true) one hears from
great britain.  this area has some especially long lists for orthopedic
surgery, for example, although if the patient can travel to another city
called roeros about 2 hours drive away the wait is greatly reduced.  but i can
tell you from experience how much of a difference there is between suffering
and knowing there will be no help for you (because you cant pay), and
suffering but knowing the time will come when a doctor will DO something
about it.  

a question to ask yourself - do you doubt me because you really dont think
this system could work, or because youre afraid of the socialist bogeyman?

-cindy kandolf

 trondheim, norway

Since the white infant mortality rate of the US and Canada are very
similar, how can anyone think the US medical system is inferior to
Canada's?

Yes, I'm very white, how perceptive of you.

--
        The best way to preserve your RKBA is to vote Libertarian.

Well, at least you're honest enough to admit there may be factors you
have no experience with.

Two issues. When you overload a system with patients who abuse themselves,
then either costs go way up, or medical care gets severely rationed.

That's the down side to your system that you ignore. And you can ignore
because it's not likely to happen in your society. But you shouldn't ignore
it when trying to tell Americans what to do.

Second, even if there were infinite resources, which there aren't, there
is only so much the medical system can do. What really counts is the way
people take care of themselves. Again, you don't really understand that
your country is different from the US.

<long story about how she got something for practically nothing>

Let's face it, most Americans don't like socialism as much as many
Europeans. Maybe because some of us know there's no such thing
as a free lunch. Somebody always pays. And if you keep stealing
from the rich, then eventually people see no reason to work hard.
~
~
~
~
--
        The best way to preserve your RKBA is to vote Libertarian.

i never said the u.s. medical system is inferior to canada's.  i was merely
saying the distribution of care is uneven in the u.s.  matter of fact i never
brought up canada.  you did.

and i dont think europeans think there IS such a thing as a free lunch.  
taxes are very high in norway and most of the rest of europe.  it's just
europeans feel theyre getting a pretty fair deal on what they pay for their
lunch.

-cindy kandolf

 trondheim, norway

p.s. if you're going to continue this argument, now that it's gotten silly,
     could you at least READ what i write first?  thank you.