Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant
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Songst
#1 / 123
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 Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant While I am horrified at the bizarre and unforgiveable error in {*filter*}/organ matching that occurred, I do have a few questions. I do not mean to sound heartless, but I knew an American {*filter*}ager who died waiting for a heart-lung transplant, so I have reason to ask. 1. Am I correct in thinking that Jesica was not an American? I think
all organs donated by Americans should go to Americans, unless none
can use them.
2. Who paid for the initial operation? I am getting the impression
it was paid for by Duke (read that: Amerucans, who are charged full
price for the same operation. The docs & hospitals never really
donate services, they just charge the rest of us more.)
3. Now her family may sue Duke out of existence, which doesn't help
anyone.
4. This girl used two sets of organs, and Americans WILL die because
of it.
If this girl's family was not paying for the operation the same way I
would be forced to, then they should NOT have the right to sue.
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| Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:18:49 GMT |
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DGiun
#2 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant Quote: Songster writes: >While I am horrified at the bizarre and unforgiveable error in
>{*filter*}/organ matching that occurred, I do have a few questions. I do
>not mean to sound heartless, but I knew an American {*filter*}ager who died
>waiting for a heart-lung transplant, so I have reason to ask.
I hate to appear as the apologist, but... It is no longer news that heart and lung transplants are done almost as a
routine procedure now days. What made this case news was that there was a
failure in the testing procedure to completely match the tissue types. A lot
of the things that happen in these, now routine, tasks are taken for granted.
And there was a monumental error here. I can not say exactly what the error
was, but the can only say "Oh No!" with the rest of the gathered crowd.
Quote: >1. Am I correct in thinking that Jesica was not an American? I think
>all organs donated by Americans should go to Americans, unless none
>can use them.
A presentation is not generally looked at in these terms. The question that is asked is does she need help? A Quote: >2. Who paid for the initial operation? I am getting the impression
>it was paid for by Duke (read that: Amerucans, who are charged full
>price for the same operation. The docs & hospitals never really
>donate services, they just charge the rest of us more.)
From some of the promotion about the case that is available on the web, it would seem that they did fund raising work to pay for at least part of the procedure. Quote: >3. Now her family may sue Duke out of existence, which doesn't help
>anyone.
Finding someone to blame will not bring back that poor young life. Quote: >4. This girl used two sets of organs, and Americans WILL die because
>of it.
It's hard to say. Tissue typing is really complex. It is also possible that tissue banks can not make use of every possible donation too. Quote: >If this girl's family was not paying for the operation the same way I
>would be forced to, then they should NOT have the right to sue.
That, if you read the background, is assured. She was a poor person who got someone else to help her with this medical problem. I worked for a while at a hospital that did quite a lot of transplant work.
One thing that you can be sure of is that without that sort of help, *all*
their patients would eventually suffer organ failure and death.
That any, at all, can be saved is the news, despite these ugly mistakes that
sometimes can happen.
I can also see how this sort of error would be possible. They were trying to
get by with the least possible expense. And that meant that when they were
wired about the availability of the organ set, the accepted on faith that the
paper work for them was correct. This saves time (it takes a short while to do
tissue matching) and money. It was not the most expensive test in the lab, but
the cost is far from trivial.
What is the question? Gertrude Stein's last words
No one mouth is big enough to utter the whole thing. Alan Watts
On Display in the UK http://www.***.com/
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| Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:58:31 GMT |
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Jeff Ut
#3 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant
Quote: > While I am horrified at the bizarre and unforgiveable error in > {*filter*}/organ matching that occurred, I do have a few questions. I do > not mean to sound heartless, but I knew an American {*filter*}ager who died > waiting for a heart-lung transplant, so I have reason to ask. > 1. Am I correct in thinking that Jesica was not an American? I think
> all organs donated by Americans should go to Americans, unless none
> can use them.
I disagree. I think it should be by race: If you are a member of the race that counts (the human race), you are eligible. Quote: > 2. Who paid for the initial operation? I am getting the impression
> it was paid for by Duke (read that: Amerucans, who are charged full
> price for the same operation. The docs & hospitals never really
> donate services, they just charge the rest of us more.)
The nerve of docs and hospitals. It is a shame they have to survive financially and eat. Actually, people do give lots of money to hospitals which makes it way to
people who can't pay.
Why can't a lot of people pay? Because they have such low-paying jobs that
they cannot afford to buy insurance. These are the people who empty my
trash, serve me food, sell newspapers. I have no problem with helping to pay
for their health insurance.
Quote: > 3. Now her family may sue Duke out of existence, which doesn't help
> anyone.
It will help encourage Duke to improve its systems so this sort of mistake doesn't happen again. Quote: > 4. This girl used two sets of organs, and Americans WILL die because
> of it.
It is a shame that another person was unable to use the first set of organs. However, I think the Mexicans deserve the same health care as all. I have no problem with paying a little mroe in taxes to help my fellow human. National borders do not matter to me. Quote: > If this girl's family was not paying for the operation the same way I
> would be forced to, then they should NOT have the right to sue.
So you have $250,000 in the bank, just in case you need a new heart? IF not, who do you think the insurance company gets it money from? All the best,
Jeff
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:56:03 GMT |
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Jeff Ut
#4 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant
Quote: > Songster writes: > >While I am horrified at the bizarre and unforgiveable error in
> >{*filter*}/organ matching that occurred, I do have a few questions. I do
> >not mean to sound heartless, but I knew an American {*filter*}ager who died
> >waiting for a heart-lung transplant, so I have reason to ask.
> I hate to appear as the apologist, but...
> It is no longer news that heart and lung transplants are done almost as a
> routine procedure now days. What made this case news was that there was a
> failure in the testing procedure to completely match the tissue types. A
lot
> of the things that happen in these, now routine, tasks are taken for
granted. You may think of these operations as routine, but the patients, families,
docs and nurses do not.
Quote: > And there was a monumental error here. I can not say exactly what the
error
> was, but the can only say "Oh No!" with the rest of the gathered crowd.
More than one error was made. Quote: > >1. Am I correct in thinking that Jesica was not an American? I think > >all organs donated by Americans should go to Americans, unless none > >can use them. > A presentation is not generally looked at in these terms. The question
that
> is asked is does she need help? A
> >2. Who paid for the initial operation? I am getting the impression
> >it was paid for by Duke (read that: Amerucans, who are charged full
> >price for the same operation. The docs & hospitals never really
> >donate services, they just charge the rest of us more.)
> From some of the promotion about the case that is available on the web,
it
> would seem that they did fund raising work to pay for at least part of the
> procedure.
> >3. Now her family may sue Duke out of existence, which doesn't help
> >anyone.
> Finding someone to blame will not bring back that poor young life.
> >4. This girl used two sets of organs, and Americans WILL die because
> >of it.
> It's hard to say. Tissue typing is really complex. It is also possible
that
> tissue banks can not make use of every possible donation too.
> >If this girl's family was not paying for the operation the same way I
> >would be forced to, then they should NOT have the right to sue.
> That, if you read the background, is assured. She was a poor person who
got
> someone else to help her with this medical problem.
> I worked for a while at a hospital that did quite a lot of transplant
work.
> One thing that you can be sure of is that without that sort of help, *all*
> their patients would eventually suffer organ failure and death.
> That any, at all, can be saved is the news, despite these ugly mistakes
that
> sometimes can happen.
> I can also see how this sort of error would be possible. They were
trying to
> get by with the least possible expense. And that meant that when they
were
> wired about the availability of the organ set, the accepted on faith that
the
> paper work for them was correct. This saves time (it takes a short while
to do
> tissue matching) and money. It was not the most expensive test in the
lab, but
> the cost is far from trivial.
> What is the question? Gertrude Stein's last words
> No one mouth is big enough to utter the whole thing. Alan Watts
> On Display in the UK http://www.***.com/
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:57:34 GMT |
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Kurt Ullm
#5 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant In article
Quote:
>It is a shame that another person was unable to use the first set of organs.
>However, I think the Mexicans deserve the same health care as all. I have no
>problem with paying a little mroe in taxes to help my fellow human. National
>borders do not matter to me.
If they only come over for the transplant (and I don't know if this was the case here), it makes me uncomfortable. . IT seems the Mexican government/society should have some responsibility for their own citizens. Otherwise, we could easily become a next exporter of organs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Politics should be limited in its scope to war, protection of property,
and the occasional precautionary {*filter*} of a member of the ruling class."
-P.J. O'Rourke
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 01:19:07 GMT |
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CBI
#6 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant
Quote: > While I am horrified at the bizarre and unforgiveable error in > {*filter*}/organ matching that occurred, I do have a few questions. I do > not mean to sound heartless, but I knew an American {*filter*}ager who died > waiting for a heart-lung transplant, so I have reason to ask. > 1. Am I correct in thinking that Jesica was not an American?
According to the news reports I saw she was an illegal alien. Her parents paid a smuggler to get her into our country so she could get better medical treatment. Quote: > I think
> all organs donated by Americans should go to Americans, unless none
> can use them.
Not all of them do. Quote: > 2. Who paid for the initial operation? I am getting the impression
> it was paid for by Duke (read that: Americans, who are charged full
> price for the same operation. The docs & hospitals never really
> donate services, they just charge the rest of us more.)
I believe that is probably correct. I guess the counter argument is that the recipient never pays for his own
transplant and the cost is always spread over a larger pool of people.
Whether the fact that she never was part of that pool matters is the subject
of some debate.
Quote: > 3. Now her family may sue Duke out of existence, which doesn't help
> anyone.
I doubt it will be out of existence. Quote: > 4. This girl used two sets of organs, and Americans WILL die because
> of it.
Not only that - the second set could have been harvested and reused - but the family refused to donate them!!!! That means that in addition to her death two others will die as well. One
was the organ allocation system's fault, one couldn't be helped, and one was
killed by her family.
Quote: > If this girl's family was not paying for the operation the same way I
> would be forced to, then they should NOT have the right to sue.
I too have some reservations about a family smuggling their daughter into the country to get free healthcare and then getting rich when the whole thing doesn't work out. There should be some incentive for the hospital to do a decent job if they are going to do it at all but the family striking it rich hardly seems right. --
CBI, MD
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:12:58 GMT |
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Jeff Ut
#7 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant
Quote: > In article
> >It is a shame that another person was unable to use the first set of
organs.
> >However, I think the Mexicans deserve the same health care as all. I have
no
> >problem with paying a little mroe in taxes to help my fellow human.
National
> >borders do not matter to me.
> If they only come over for the transplant (and I don't know if this was
the
> case here), it makes me uncomfortable. . IT seems the Mexican
> government/society should have some responsibility for their own citizens.
> Otherwise, we could easily become a next exporter of organs.
The Mexican society can't afford it. I guess in the future the alternative is to let them die. All the best,
Jeff
Quote: > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
> "Politics should be limited in its scope to war, protection of property,
> and the occasional precautionary {*filter*} of a member of the ruling
class."
> -P.J. O'Rourke
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:14:08 GMT |
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Kurt Ullm
#8 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant In article
Quote:
>The Mexican society can't afford it. I guess in the future the alternative
>is to let them die.
The Mexicans seem to think so.... I don't see how the US can be made responsible for the world's transplants.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Politics should be limited in its scope to war, protection of property,
and the occasional precautionary {*filter*} of a member of the ruling class."
-P.J. O'Rourke
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:54:03 GMT |
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Bo
#9 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant Well said, jeff. bob
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 11:56:03 -0500, "Jeff Utz"
Quote:
>> While I am horrified at the bizarre and unforgiveable error in
>> {*filter*}/organ matching that occurred, I do have a few questions. I do
>> not mean to sound heartless, but I knew an American {*filter*}ager who died
>> waiting for a heart-lung transplant, so I have reason to ask.
>> 1. Am I correct in thinking that Jesica was not an American? I think
>> all organs donated by Americans should go to Americans, unless none
>> can use them.
>I disagree. I think it should be by race: If you are a member of the race
>that counts (the human race), you are eligible.
>> 2. Who paid for the initial operation? I am getting the impression
>> it was paid for by Duke (read that: Amerucans, who are charged full
>> price for the same operation. The docs & hospitals never really
>> donate services, they just charge the rest of us more.)
>The nerve of docs and hospitals. It is a shame they have to survive
>financially and eat.
>Actually, people do give lots of money to hospitals which makes it way to
>people who can't pay.
>Why can't a lot of people pay? Because they have such low-paying jobs that
>they cannot afford to buy insurance. These are the people who empty my
>trash, serve me food, sell newspapers. I have no problem with helping to pay
>for their health insurance.
>> 3. Now her family may sue Duke out of existence, which doesn't help
>> anyone.
>It will help encourage Duke to improve its systems so this sort of mistake
>doesn't happen again.
>> 4. This girl used two sets of organs, and Americans WILL die because
>> of it.
>It is a shame that another person was unable to use the first set of organs.
>However, I think the Mexicans deserve the same health care as all. I have no
>problem with paying a little mroe in taxes to help my fellow human. National
>borders do not matter to me.
>> If this girl's family was not paying for the operation the same way I
>> would be forced to, then they should NOT have the right to sue.
>So you have $250,000 in the bank, just in case you need a new heart? IF not,
>who do you think the insurance company gets it money from?
>All the best,
>Jeff
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 04:32:24 GMT |
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Orac
#10 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant
Quote:
> While I am horrified at the bizarre and unforgiveable error in > {*filter*}/organ matching that occurred, I do have a few questions. I do > not mean to sound heartless, but I knew an American {*filter*}ager who died > waiting for a heart-lung transplant, so I have reason to ask. > 1. Am I correct in thinking that Jesica was not an American? I think
> all organs donated by Americans should go to Americans, unless none
> can use them.
I wouldn't put it quite that strictly. I'd say that organs harvested in the U.S. should go to American citizens, permanent residents, or to those in the country legally. Quote: > 2. Who paid for the initial operation? I am getting the impression
> it was paid for by Duke (read that: Amerucans, who are charged full
> price for the same operation. The docs & hospitals never really
> donate services, they just charge the rest of us more.)
No, I don't believe Duke paid for the first operation. Mark Mahoney, a local businessman, started a charity to help pay for it. The charity is called Jesica's Hope Chest and has a website: http://www.***.com/ . Quote: > 3. Now her family may sue Duke out of existence, which doesn't help
> anyone.
Her family has stated publically on several occasions that they do not plan to sue. Whether some lawyer talks them into changing their minds or not is, of course, up in the air. My guess is that they will be pursuaded to change their minds. Quote: > 4. This girl used two sets of organs, and Americans WILL die because
> of it.
This is a dicey ethical dilemma. For one thing, someone as ill as Jesica might have gone to the top of the transplant list anyway, because acuteness of need is one of the most important criteria for determining who gets organs. Quote: > If this girl's family was not paying for the operation the same way I
> would be forced to, then they should NOT have the right to sue.
Why not? Before you answer, let me tell you that I am a surgeon myself, so I'm by
no means an apologist for trial lawyers, many of whom are greedy
ambulance chasers. On the other hand, when an error this egregious is
made, I do see a role for the legal system.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 05:24:17 GMT |
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Orac
#11 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant
Quote: > In article
> >It is a shame that another person was unable to use the first set of organs.
> >However, I think the Mexicans deserve the same health care as all. I have no
> >problem with paying a little mroe in taxes to help my fellow human. National
> >borders do not matter to me.
> If they only come over for the transplant (and I don't know if this was
> the
> case here), it makes me uncomfortable. . IT seems the Mexican
> government/society should have some responsibility for their own citizens.
> Otherwise, we could easily become a next exporter of organs.
It's not clear to me here either. I have heard that she was in the country illegally. If that is true, then I would be very uneasy about having given her not one but two sets of organs. --
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 05:26:01 GMT |
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Orac
#12 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant
Quote:
> > 4. This girl used two sets of organs, and Americans WILL die because > > of it. > Not only that - the second set could have been harvested and reused - but
> the family refused to donate them!!!!
This doesn't sound right. I don't know too many transplant surgeons who would have been enthusiastic about using organs that had been transplanted into a recipient who later died. --
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 05:27:42 GMT |
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Orac
#13 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant In article
Quote:
> > Songster writes: > > >While I am horrified at the bizarre and unforgiveable error in
> > >{*filter*}/organ matching that occurred, I do have a few questions. I do
> > >not mean to sound heartless, but I knew an American {*filter*}ager who died
> > >waiting for a heart-lung transplant, so I have reason to ask.
> > I hate to appear as the apologist, but...
> > It is no longer news that heart and lung transplants are done almost as a
> > routine procedure now days. What made this case news was that there was a
> > failure in the testing procedure to completely match the tissue types. A
> lot
> > of the things that happen in these, now routine, tasks are taken for
> granted.
> You may think of these operations as routine, but the patients, families,
> docs and nurses do not.
> > And there was a monumental error here. I can not say exactly what the
> error
> > was, but the can only say "Oh No!" with the rest of the gathered crowd.
> More than one error was made.
Indeed. Part of the problem is that the Duke program appears to have lacked the
structured redundancy in safety procedures that makes it impossible for
the error of one or even two or more critical personnel to cause a
catastrophic error, because systems are in place to check yet again
before the commitment to transplant is irrevocable.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 05:30:01 GMT |
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Kurt Ullm
#14 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant
Quote:
>Part of the problem is that the Duke program appears to have lacked the
>structured redundancy in safety procedures that makes it impossible for
>the error of one or even two or more critical personnel to cause a
>catastrophic error, because systems are in place to check yet again
>before the commitment to transplant is irrevocable.
From what I understand, it appears that UNOS doesn't either. It would seem that the first set should not have even been considered for sending to Duke in the first place. Admittedly not a transplant surgeon, but it would seem before one sends organs someplace you should be damn sure they can actually use them. It isn't like ABO is 4-5th down on the decision chain. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Politics should be limited in its scope to war, protection of property,
and the occasional precautionary {*filter*} of a member of the ruling class."
-P.J. O'Rourke
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 06:42:56 GMT |
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<georgeconk..
#15 / 123
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Issues to do with Duke's screwed-up transplant
Quote:
> > While I am horrified at the bizarre and unforgiveable error in
> > {*filter*}/organ matching that occurred, I do have a few questions. I do
> > not mean to sound heartless, but I knew an American {*filter*}ager who died
> > waiting for a heart-lung transplant, so I have reason to ask.
> > 1. Am I correct in thinking that Jesica was not an American? I think
> > all organs donated by Americans should go to Americans, unless none
> > can use them.
> I wouldn't put it quite that strictly. I'd say that organs harvested in
> the U.S. should go to American citizens, permanent residents, or to
> those in the country legally.
Jessica's family are Mexican, and they came here to seek medical care. Would Oreck rule them out? Just wondering.
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| Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:21:02 GMT |
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