I posted a similar request on misc.fitness, misc.health.alternative, and
rec.food.veg, but so far I haven't gotten much response.

I'm trying to get into shape (long overdue) via a modified vegetarian
Pritikin-style diet and a lot of aerobic and weight training exercise.

While trying to lose about 60 pounds of fat, I would like to gain 10-30
pounds of muscle.  All over the course of 1 to 3 years.

I understand (I think) the WHO protien requirements for maintenence, but
how much protien would someone need on a daily basis to go from a 160
lean mass to, say 185 lean mass in 18 months?  I'm talking about the
MINIMUM amount, as I want to do no damage to my kidneys (family history
of kidney disease).

Also, can this protien be gotten from vegetable sources?  Does the old
bean-and-grain combining work?

Thanks in advance!  E-mail response greatly appreciated!

: I posted a similar request on misc.fitness, misc.health.alternative, and
: rec.food.veg, but so far I haven't gotten much response.

: I'm trying to get into shape (long overdue) via a modified vegetarian
: Pritikin-style diet and a lot of aerobic and weight training exercise.

: While trying to lose about 60 pounds of fat, I would like to gain 10-30
: pounds of muscle.  All over the course of 1 to 3 years.

: I understand (I think) the WHO protien requirements for maintenence, but
: how much protien would someone need on a daily basis to go from a 160
: lean mass to, say 185 lean mass in 18 months?  I'm talking about the
: MINIMUM amount, as I want to do no damage to my kidneys (family history
: of kidney disease).

: Also, can this protien be gotten from vegetable sources?  Does the old
: bean-and-grain combining work?

Someone (Jai Maharaj) will try to tell you there is more than enough
protein in a vegetarian diet to do the trick.  What he will neglect to
tell you is that ALL vegetable protein sources are incomplete...that is`
the protein they supply is missing one or more of the amino acids that
the human body requires to produce muscle tissue.  This means that no matter
how much vegetable matter you eat, if you dont eat the right combinations
of veggies within reasonable amounts of time from each other, you will
end up protein defficient quite likely.  This is not to say that I dont
believe it possible to get sufficient protein from veggies...it's just
garder, and takes a greater awareness of your diet, and your body's
needs.

If your only reason for becoming a vegetarian is health related, then
I suggest at the very least you consider eating canned tuna, packed in
water.  It's an excellent source of protein, and has virtually NO fat
in it.  Skinless chicken (skinned BEFORE cooking) and the occasional
slab of lean beef or pork is also good, but not to excess.

Finally, I strongly recommend that if you choose to stay with the veggie
diet, that you continue to eat/drink dairly products.  They are a good
source of the fat soluble vitamins you need (such as the D vitamins), and
can provide the calcium you need.  Some veggies have a fair bit of calcium
and iron in them, but it is not very assimilable.  Hmmm...I could be wrong
about that with respect to calcium.  I'm sure of the iron bit though.

Hope this helps.

Roy G

Roy-

Regarding non-animal sources of calcium and iron. You're both wrong
and right.  First, iron....In general, the bioavailability (e.g.
how well you can get a nutrient from a cooking.net">food or diet) if non-heme
iron is low (heme iron is the very available form found in meat
while non-heme iron is what is present in vegetables, supplements
and fortified cereals).  The absorption of non-heme iron can be
improved by simultaneous consumption with some foods - orange juice
is a classic enhancer of non-heme iron absorption.  My lab group
just completed an analysis of the Framingham Heart Study subjects
(actually, just the elderly ones) and we have found that iron status
is best predicted by the amount of heme iron in the diet (up to a
point) and poorly predicted by the amount of non-heme iron in the
diet.  Also, the more orange juice a person drank, the higher their
iron stores were. (Richard Wood and Diana Flemming were the people who
did this work).
As for calcium, except for a few, high oxalate foods, the calcium in
vegetables is very well absorbed.  The only real problem is that the
calcium is not very concentrated in these foods so you'ld have to
consume quite a bit of them to meet the RDA for calcium

James C. Fleet, Ph.D.
Tufts University
School of Nutrition

says...

For a body-builder, the amount of daily protein above which there
has never been a demonstrated benefit on protein retention is
1.7 g/kg/day. You are about 75 kg, so that comes out to 127.5 g/day
protein, which is 510 calories, or 17% of the total calories in
a 3000 calorie per day diet (assuming you are reasonably active, if
you want to gain 25 lbs lean mass).
        This protein can be easily gotten from vegetarian sources.
Most beans have greater than 25% of their calories from protein. Most
veggies come in between 10 and 20 %. Just read the cooking.net">food labels, or
get some source of nutrition information. There is shareware out there
(archie for nutr123.zip).
        As for combining rice and beans, cooking.net">food combining is not
a necessary option in our culture. Very few vegetarian sources are
so limited in amino acid content that you would actually benefit much
from cooking.net">food combining. Try not to eat the exact same thing every meal,
keep your protein intake such that you get 130 grams per day, and drink
lots of water to help out the kidneys.

--
---------------------------
Dave Blake

" The more you drive, the less intelligent you are."  - Repo man

says...
[snip]

Please qualify statements like this that are in direct contrast with
everything posted on the subject for the last 2 years at least.

For instance, did you know that soybean protein is more 'complete'
(if that is even a good measure of a protein) than beef ? Chicken ?
So I guess if all vegetarian protein sources are incomplete we are left with
the only protein sources more complete than soybeans - egg whites and
human milk.

Did you know that if you eat the USRDA worth of protein from
virtually any legume that none of the 8 essential (9 essential
if you'd rather) amino acids will be limiting protein anabolism ?

Did you know that getting 15% of your calories from protein will leave
you in positive nitrogen status  - virtually irrespective of your fitness
habits ? And that it is pretty easy to eat more than 15% of
your calories from protein  - even if you are a vegan ?

This information - although it appears with references in this
newsgroup often enough - is contained in the rec.food.veg FAQ.

[snip out arguments on iron and calcium]

--
---------------------------
Dave Blake

" The more you drive, the less intelligent you are."  - Repo man

...
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  I'll go look at the FAQ for this too, but I had read that hemp seeds
are better than soybeans.  The writers say it is complete, easily
digested protein and contains the proper proportion of Essential
Fatty Acids as well as the proteins.  Also much more resistant to excess
UV when growing than soy.  Easy to grow just about any place and needs
little or no fertilizer or pesticides.  It just has to be imported
to the US, but (sterilized) seeds can be bought for about $1 per pound.

Can anyone give numbers on the relative protein values of hemp vs. soy?  

Regards,
WHH

Interesting that whey protein is an albumin, as is the majorityof protein in
eggs.
- - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ---------------------------------- - - - - - - -

     "It isn't enough to talk about peace.  One must believe it.  IAnd it isn't
     enough to believe it.  One must work at it."   ------Eleanor Roosevelt  
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

No, but the high from smoking soybean pods probably sucks...

Actually, soy protein is slightly deficient in methionine and thus
theoretically less "efficient" than egg or whey protein...hemp seeds are
likely to be about the same PER as brazil nuts or thereabouts...

RTFM! -- the artist 4merly known as jabbo [] Every artist is a {*filter*}


http://www.***.com/ ~jabbo []  and sing about the grief