Medical ethics rounds 
Author Message
 Medical ethics rounds

On NPR this morning they had an interesting case:

A woman with {*filter*} cancer comes in with headaches.  Her doctor wants to
perform a CT scan to see if she has brain metastases.  The insurance company
says they will not pay for a CT scan unless she has brain metastases, not just
to see if she does (that's smart!).  Should the physician lie and say she does
so the insurance will pay for it, or just order it and let the woman fight it
out with the company if she doesn't have brain metastases?

Generalizing, should the physician ever lie to help the patient when the
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      |"I do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men

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Fri, 05 Jul 1996 01:42:58 GMT
 Medical ethics rounds
  A woman with {*filter*} cancer comes in with headaches.  Her doctor wants to
  perform a CT scan to see if she has brain metastases.  The insurance company
  says they will not pay for a CT scan unless she has brain metastases, not
  just to see if she does (that's smart!).  Should the physician lie and say
  she does so the insurance will pay for it, or just order it and let the
  woman fight it out with the company if she doesn't have brain metastases?

Frankly, I wouldn't know what to suggest. I don't think the insurance company
should practice medicine without a license [which they are doing here]
nor do I think the physician should 'practice insurance' when making optimal
medical decisions. Perhaps the best solution for the patient/doctor vis a vis
the insurance company would be to take the approach that the insurance company
is acting in 'bad faith'....which they most certainly are. I don't know what
this would involve in practical terms.

JB



Fri, 05 Jul 1996 06:32:56 GMT
 Medical ethics rounds

Quote:

> On NPR this morning they had an interesting case:

[case in which insurance co refuses to pay for expensive test unless it
yields positive results deleted]

Interesting.  I just received the 2nd edition of CASES IN BIOETHICS:
Selections from the Hastings Center Report.  While there are 60 various
different cases and commentaries thereon, none of them include issues
where an insurance co would refuse to pay for a test that was needed in
the physician's judgement unless the physician lied.  But surely these
sorts of things happen all the time.  (I even recall my own dr asking me
at my last regular physical whether to put on the ins form that it was a
routine physical, or should it say that I had come in with a complaint so
that the ins would pay?) Hmmmm.

I hope that medical ethics texts and source books begin including such
cases as this in their research data soon, as it definitely seems like an
increasingly important issue in biomedical ethics.

BTW - the closest cast to this one in CASES IN BIOETHICS was one in which
a hospital administrator threatened to fire an ob/gyn who was performing
*too few* c-sections compared to his colleagues.  It turned out that this
doc believed in attempting VBAC with most patients, while his colleagues
did not.  But the hosp admin pointed out that the hosp *lost* money on
{*filter*}l births, but made money on c-sections.  Therefore, doctors who
didn't perform enough c-sections were losing the hospital money, and
might force it to close its emergency room facilities (which were
subsidized by the rest of the hospital's income).  Therefore, they WANTED
doctors to perform c-sections rather than {*filter*}l deliveries whenever a
plausible case could be made for doing so, because they hospital needed
the insurance payments for c-sections in order to stay afloat.

In this case, in general the commentators pretty much agreed that a
physician's responsibility is to individual patients, one at a time,
rather than to society-as-a-whole.  So even if society-as-a-whole would
lose from the closing of an ER, it was important not to perform
unnecessary surgeries on individuals just to make enough money from
insurance to prevent its closing.  However, when I teach this case, I
contrast it with physicians' decisions to give or withhold antibiotics,
for example.  

The contrast case is the child who shows up in the ER on Thursday night
before a 3-day holiday weekend, with symptoms that suggest strep (this,
before the QuickStrep test was available, tho).  If the overall social
good comes first, the doc should wait for the test result before deciding
whether to prescribe antibiotics, to ensure that they are not being
prescribed unnecessarily (social risk of superinfections,
antibiotic-resistant bacteria developing, etc.).  But if the individual
patient's well-being is paramount, then 4-5 additional days of high
fever, vomiting & sore throat can likely be avoided by giving the
antibiotic when the child presents, rather than waiting for the (very
likely positive) test result, even though BY THE BOOK the doc should
wait.



Fri, 05 Jul 1996 22:09:48 GMT
 Medical ethics rounds

Quote:

>On NPR this morning they had an interesting case:

>A woman with {*filter*} cancer comes in with headaches.  Her doctor wants to
>perform a CT scan to see if she has brain metastases.  The insurance company
>says they will not pay for a CT scan unless she has brain metastases, not just
>to see if she does (that's smart!).  Should the physician lie and say she does
>so the insurance will pay for it, or just order it and let the woman fight it
>out with the company if she doesn't have brain metastases?

Smart?  Tests are to find out what is not known, not to confirm what is known.
--
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054

{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)


Sun, 07 Jul 1996 04:36:26 GMT
 Medical ethics rounds


Quote:
>antibiotic when the child presents, rather than waiting for the (very
>likely positive) test result, even though BY THE BOOK the doc should
>wait.

Actually, the by the book answer in a child presenting with a sore
throat and clinical picture consistent with strep is to treat for
strep and to probably not even bother with the culture or rapid
strep test, which have some chance of being a false negative.

At least that's what every cost-benefit analysis I've seen on the
subject would suggest to do for {*filter*}s, and in children, with
a higher incidence of strep, this would make even more sense.

--
David Rind



Sun, 07 Jul 1996 05:23:51 GMT
 Medical ethics rounds

Quote:


>>On NPR this morning they had an interesting case:

>>A woman with {*filter*} cancer comes in with headaches.  Her doctor wants to
>>perform a CT scan to see if she has brain metastases.  The insurance company
>>says they will not pay for a CT scan unless she has brain metastases, not just
>>to see if she does (that's smart!).  Should the physician lie and say she does
>>so the insurance will pay for it, or just order it and let the woman fight it
>>out with the company if she doesn't have brain metastases?
>Smart?  Tests are to find out what is not known, not to confirm what is known.
>--
>Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
>Phone: (317)494-6054

>{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)

Well, why lie? Do the test, bill her for it and let her fight it out with
the insurance company. In the meantime she has the benefit of the test and
if worst comes to worse she can pay it off. Is there a benefit to knowing
if one has or hasn't brain metastases?

Jackie



Sun, 07 Jul 1996 13:16:59 GMT
 Medical ethics rounds

Quote:


> >antibiotic when the child presents, rather than waiting for the (very
> >likely positive) test result, even though BY THE BOOK the doc should
> >wait.
> Actually, the by the book answer in a child presenting with a sore
> throat and clinical picture consistent with strep is to treat for
> strep and to probably not even bother with the culture or rapid
> strep test, which have some chance of being a false negative.

Oops, my example must be out of date or inaccurate (U of Minnesota Med School
Medical Ethics Seminar, Prof. John Dolan, 1985).  Can anyone help me think of a
better one?  There are, of course, lots of funky & wierd examples of individual
patients' needs apparently conflicting with society-as-a-whole's needs (e.g.,
Death Row Inmate Has Heart Attack, should it be treated?).  Or there are the
usual "free rider" problems (best personal "min/max" outcome is if everyone
ELSE is vaccinated, but not you).  I like to find such examples that are (a)
accurate, (b) genuinely puzzling, (c) NOT dependent on price/cost
considerations (that is a different section of the course). Any realistic
examples appreciated...


Tue, 09 Jul 1996 08:47:39 GMT
 Medical ethics rounds

Quote:

>Well, why lie? Do the test, bill her for it and let her fight it out with
>the insurance company. In the meantime she has the benefit of the test and
>if worst comes to worse she can pay it off. Is there a benefit to knowing
>if one has or hasn't brain metastases?

Obviously.  If you had {*filter*} cancer and hoped you were cured but now
have headaches, wouldn't you like to know if you had metastases or it
was just migraines?  I suppose they could just treat them as migraines
and see if you died in a few months....  Most people wouldn't like that
approach.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      |"I do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men

------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Wed, 10 Jul 1996 04:34:31 GMT
 Medical ethics rounds

Quote:
> A woman with {*filter*} cancer comes in with headaches.  Her doctor wants to
> perform a CT scan to see if she has brain metastases.  The insurance company
> says they will not pay for a CT scan unless she has brain metastases, not just
> to see if she does (that's smart!).  Should the physician lie and say she does
> so the insurance will pay for it, or just order it and let the woman fight it
> out with the company if she doesn't have brain metastases?

It's clearly ethical, IMO, to lie to circumvent such a boneheaded
policy.  I wouldn't do it - not because of ethical qualms, but out
of concern for legal actions that might be taken against me.  I
would, however, be willing to spend some time fighting the company
over this; it is likely that case-by-case exceptions would be made.
The current standard of care for newly diagnosed {*filter*} cancer with
positive nodes includes brain imaging even *without* headaches, as
part of a staging work-up, and I would argue the case on these
grounds.
---



Sun, 07 Jul 1996 20:37:00 GMT
 
 [ 9 post ] 

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