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Gordon Ban #1 / 9
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 Medical ethics rounds
On NPR this morning they had an interesting case: A woman with {*filter*} cancer comes in with headaches. Her doctor wants to perform a CT scan to see if she has brain metastases. The insurance company says they will not pay for a CT scan unless she has brain metastases, not just to see if she does (that's smart!). Should the physician lie and say she does so the insurance will pay for it, or just order it and let the woman fight it out with the company if she doesn't have brain metastases? Generalizing, should the physician ever lie to help the patient when the -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gordon Banks N3JXP |"I do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men
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Fri, 05 Jul 1996 01:42:58 GMT |
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John Badan #2 / 9
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 Medical ethics rounds
A woman with {*filter*} cancer comes in with headaches. Her doctor wants to perform a CT scan to see if she has brain metastases. The insurance company says they will not pay for a CT scan unless she has brain metastases, not just to see if she does (that's smart!). Should the physician lie and say she does so the insurance will pay for it, or just order it and let the woman fight it out with the company if she doesn't have brain metastases? Frankly, I wouldn't know what to suggest. I don't think the insurance company should practice medicine without a license [which they are doing here] nor do I think the physician should 'practice insurance' when making optimal medical decisions. Perhaps the best solution for the patient/doctor vis a vis the insurance company would be to take the approach that the insurance company is acting in 'bad faith'....which they most certainly are. I don't know what this would involve in practical terms. JB
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Fri, 05 Jul 1996 06:32:56 GMT |
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Ruth Ginzbe #3 / 9
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 Medical ethics rounds
Quote:
> On NPR this morning they had an interesting case:
[case in which insurance co refuses to pay for expensive test unless it yields positive results deleted] Interesting. I just received the 2nd edition of CASES IN BIOETHICS: Selections from the Hastings Center Report. While there are 60 various different cases and commentaries thereon, none of them include issues where an insurance co would refuse to pay for a test that was needed in the physician's judgement unless the physician lied. But surely these sorts of things happen all the time. (I even recall my own dr asking me at my last regular physical whether to put on the ins form that it was a routine physical, or should it say that I had come in with a complaint so that the ins would pay?) Hmmmm. I hope that medical ethics texts and source books begin including such cases as this in their research data soon, as it definitely seems like an increasingly important issue in biomedical ethics. BTW - the closest cast to this one in CASES IN BIOETHICS was one in which a hospital administrator threatened to fire an ob/gyn who was performing *too few* c-sections compared to his colleagues. It turned out that this doc believed in attempting VBAC with most patients, while his colleagues did not. But the hosp admin pointed out that the hosp *lost* money on {*filter*}l births, but made money on c-sections. Therefore, doctors who didn't perform enough c-sections were losing the hospital money, and might force it to close its emergency room facilities (which were subsidized by the rest of the hospital's income). Therefore, they WANTED doctors to perform c-sections rather than {*filter*}l deliveries whenever a plausible case could be made for doing so, because they hospital needed the insurance payments for c-sections in order to stay afloat. In this case, in general the commentators pretty much agreed that a physician's responsibility is to individual patients, one at a time, rather than to society-as-a-whole. So even if society-as-a-whole would lose from the closing of an ER, it was important not to perform unnecessary surgeries on individuals just to make enough money from insurance to prevent its closing. However, when I teach this case, I contrast it with physicians' decisions to give or withhold antibiotics, for example. The contrast case is the child who shows up in the ER on Thursday night before a 3-day holiday weekend, with symptoms that suggest strep (this, before the QuickStrep test was available, tho). If the overall social good comes first, the doc should wait for the test result before deciding whether to prescribe antibiotics, to ensure that they are not being prescribed unnecessarily (social risk of superinfections, antibiotic-resistant bacteria developing, etc.). But if the individual patient's well-being is paramount, then 4-5 additional days of high fever, vomiting & sore throat can likely be avoided by giving the antibiotic when the child presents, rather than waiting for the (very likely positive) test result, even though BY THE BOOK the doc should wait.
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Fri, 05 Jul 1996 22:09:48 GMT |
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Herman Rub #4 / 9
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 Medical ethics rounds
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>On NPR this morning they had an interesting case: >A woman with {*filter*} cancer comes in with headaches. Her doctor wants to >perform a CT scan to see if she has brain metastases. The insurance company >says they will not pay for a CT scan unless she has brain metastases, not just >to see if she does (that's smart!). Should the physician lie and say she does >so the insurance will pay for it, or just order it and let the woman fight it >out with the company if she doesn't have brain metastases?
Smart? Tests are to find out what is not known, not to confirm what is known. -- Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 Phone: (317)494-6054
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
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Sun, 07 Jul 1996 04:36:26 GMT |
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David Ri #5 / 9
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 Medical ethics rounds
Quote: >antibiotic when the child presents, rather than waiting for the (very >likely positive) test result, even though BY THE BOOK the doc should >wait.
Actually, the by the book answer in a child presenting with a sore throat and clinical picture consistent with strep is to treat for strep and to probably not even bother with the culture or rapid strep test, which have some chance of being a false negative. At least that's what every cost-benefit analysis I've seen on the subject would suggest to do for {*filter*}s, and in children, with a higher incidence of strep, this would make even more sense. -- David Rind
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Sun, 07 Jul 1996 05:23:51 GMT |
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Jacquelin Aldrid #6 / 9
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 Medical ethics rounds
Quote:
>>On NPR this morning they had an interesting case: >>A woman with {*filter*} cancer comes in with headaches. Her doctor wants to >>perform a CT scan to see if she has brain metastases. The insurance company >>says they will not pay for a CT scan unless she has brain metastases, not just >>to see if she does (that's smart!). Should the physician lie and say she does >>so the insurance will pay for it, or just order it and let the woman fight it >>out with the company if she doesn't have brain metastases? >Smart? Tests are to find out what is not known, not to confirm what is known. >-- >Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 >Phone: (317)494-6054
>{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Well, why lie? Do the test, bill her for it and let her fight it out with the insurance company. In the meantime she has the benefit of the test and if worst comes to worse she can pay it off. Is there a benefit to knowing if one has or hasn't brain metastases? Jackie
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Sun, 07 Jul 1996 13:16:59 GMT |
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Ruth Ginzbe #7 / 9
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 Medical ethics rounds
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> >antibiotic when the child presents, rather than waiting for the (very > >likely positive) test result, even though BY THE BOOK the doc should > >wait. > Actually, the by the book answer in a child presenting with a sore > throat and clinical picture consistent with strep is to treat for > strep and to probably not even bother with the culture or rapid > strep test, which have some chance of being a false negative.
Oops, my example must be out of date or inaccurate (U of Minnesota Med School Medical Ethics Seminar, Prof. John Dolan, 1985). Can anyone help me think of a better one? There are, of course, lots of funky & wierd examples of individual patients' needs apparently conflicting with society-as-a-whole's needs (e.g., Death Row Inmate Has Heart Attack, should it be treated?). Or there are the usual "free rider" problems (best personal "min/max" outcome is if everyone ELSE is vaccinated, but not you). I like to find such examples that are (a) accurate, (b) genuinely puzzling, (c) NOT dependent on price/cost considerations (that is a different section of the course). Any realistic examples appreciated...
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Tue, 09 Jul 1996 08:47:39 GMT |
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Gordon Ban #8 / 9
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 Medical ethics rounds
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>Well, why lie? Do the test, bill her for it and let her fight it out with >the insurance company. In the meantime she has the benefit of the test and >if worst comes to worse she can pay it off. Is there a benefit to knowing >if one has or hasn't brain metastases?
Obviously. If you had {*filter*} cancer and hoped you were cured but now have headaches, wouldn't you like to know if you had metastases or it was just migraines? I suppose they could just treat them as migraines and see if you died in a few months.... Most people wouldn't like that approach. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gordon Banks N3JXP |"I do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men
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Wed, 10 Jul 1996 04:34:31 GMT |
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Jim Zisfe #9 / 9
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 Medical ethics rounds
Quote: > A woman with {*filter*} cancer comes in with headaches. Her doctor wants to > perform a CT scan to see if she has brain metastases. The insurance company > says they will not pay for a CT scan unless she has brain metastases, not just > to see if she does (that's smart!). Should the physician lie and say she does > so the insurance will pay for it, or just order it and let the woman fight it > out with the company if she doesn't have brain metastases?
It's clearly ethical, IMO, to lie to circumvent such a boneheaded policy. I wouldn't do it - not because of ethical qualms, but out of concern for legal actions that might be taken against me. I would, however, be willing to spend some time fighting the company over this; it is likely that case-by-case exceptions would be made. The current standard of care for newly diagnosed {*filter*} cancer with positive nodes includes brain imaging even *without* headaches, as part of a staging work-up, and I would argue the case on these grounds. ---
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Sun, 07 Jul 1996 20:37:00 GMT |
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