Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
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R L Samue #1 / 12
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Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
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> ... >None of these claims has ever borne fruit: So far as mainstream linguists are >concerned, Basque stands alone.
And yet it seems that it must be related to some extinct family of languages, since to accept that it could arise independent of all other tongues is rather unbelievable. Can nothing be deduced from the folklore and customs of the Basque people to suggest their origins and possible relationships of their language? I have heard that sheep-herding suggests an early nomadic existence. What is the earliest mention of the Basque in other cultures-- Roman, Greek, or Phoenician, for example? Thanks, R L Samuell
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Sat, 20 Jul 1996 12:38:40 GMT |
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Benjamin Castellot Melend #2 / 12
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Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
: : And yet it seems that it must be related to some extinct family of languages, : since to accept that it could arise independent of all other tongues is : rather unbelievable. Can nothing be deduced from the folklore and customs : of the Basque people to suggest their origins and possible relationships of : their language? I have heard that sheep-herding suggests an early nomadic : existence. What is the earliest mention of the Basque in other cultures-- : Roman, Greek, or Phoenician, for example? : : Thanks, : One of the first mentions of Basques in history appeared when Augustus decided (according with his policiy of security of the empire borders) to conquered the extreme north area of Iberia, which has not been take into account by romans until then, because of its lack of gold and silver, and for being a very mountanious area. This happened about 20 B.C. and romans fought hardly (in one occasion the imperial fleet was involved in war) whith tribes called Asturii and Vasconii. Vasconii were the Basques (in Spanish called Vascos). The romans defeated the tribes after a long fight, and make several treaties whith the tribe chiefs, but they did not seriously intend to romanise the territory due to the reasons I mentioned above, they only established several military sites to control the frontier and protect the gold mines in Gallaecia. In fact, during the rest of the first century B.C there were three roman legions in the area. This number was reduced during the first century and in Nero's age only remained one (Legio VII Gemina Victris), which was there until the end of the empire. its site gave origin to the city of Leon (Leon = Legio).Even now, part of the original walls of the roman fortress could be visited in the center of the city. As i said, romand did not intend to romanise the north area, which allowed basque to survive. Some days ago I mentioned we have several preserved examples in Spain of how Non-indoeropeans preromanic languages were. Severel people has tried to compare them whith basque and even to translate them using basque, but none has succeded.
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Sat, 20 Jul 1996 17:06:45 GMT |
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Claudia Mastroian #3 / 12
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Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
I've tried to adjust the followups to sci.lang (first time on this newsreader).
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>>None of these claims has ever borne fruit: So far as mainstream linguists are >>concerned, Basque stands alone. >And yet it seems that it must be related to some extinct family of languages, >since to accept that it could arise independent of all other tongues is >rather unbelievable.
Why? At some point, one has to have a first language (or several firsts scattered around). If it could happen in that instance, then why not again for Basque? We don't, in fact, know how many languages unrelated to others may have existed and died, unless we find written traces. Or am I oversimplifying? Claudia
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Sun, 21 Jul 1996 01:12:35 GMT |
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R L Samue #4 / 12
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Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
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>>>None of these claims has ever borne fruit: So far as mainstream linguists are >>>concerned, Basque stands alone. >>And yet it seems that it must be related to some extinct family of languages, >>since to accept that it could arise independent of all other tongues is >>rather unbelievable. >Why? At some point, one has to have a first language (or several firsts >scattered around). If it could happen in that instance, then why not again >for Basque? We don't, in fact, know how many languages unrelated to others >may have existed and died, unless we find written traces. >Or am I oversimplifying?
What I find unbelievable is that an existing language like Basque could have arisen independent of all language groups which is not the same as saying that language groups cannot arise independently. R L Samuell
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Sun, 21 Jul 1996 05:12:25 GMT |
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Paul Ambla #5 / 12
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Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
Quote: >What I find unbelievable is that an existing language like Basque could >have arisen independent of all language groups which is not the same as >saying that language groups cannot arise independently. >R L Samuell
Basque arose - we ignore when - we ignore where. It was related to other languages spoken in this time in this place ( could we assume a 6000 years old esperanto ? I do not) The other languages - have disappeared OR - have changed to such a point that the relations are very difficult to establish in a strong way. The main hypothesis seems to look for relations in Caucasus. -- Paul AMBLARD L.G.I. I.M.A.G. BP 53 F 38041 GRENOBLE Cedex 9
Eur penner ha pa ve' fall, a dal kant skoe^d var eun all. Proverbe breton
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Sun, 21 Jul 1996 18:04:59 GMT |
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Benjamin Castellot Melend #6 / 12
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Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
: >What I find unbelievable is that an existing language like Basque could : >have arisen independent of all language groups which is not the same as : >saying that language groups cannot arise independently. : >R L Samuell : : Basque arose : - we ignore when : - we ignore where. : It was related to other languages spoken in this time in this place : ( could we assume a 6000 years old esperanto ? I do not) : The other languages : - have disappeared : OR : - have changed to such a point that the relations are very difficult to : establish in a strong way. : The main hypothesis seems to look for relations in Caucasus. : The main problem with basque is that Basque probably belonged to a group of iberian languages which were wiped out first by celtic languages and then by latin. We have several examples of how iberian languages were but they are too short and consist mainly of names. Another problem is that the gap between iberian languages and the first studies of basque is about two millenia, and one can suppouse the huge changes that a language can suffer in this interval. One have to realize that when, in the end of the XIXth century, people began to interest in Basque, it had nearly dissapeared and was anly sopken in several valleys. this means that a great of its vocabulary has to be taken from other languages (mainly from Spanish). This caused that old basque speakers could not understand the new basque. David Florez
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Mon, 22 Jul 1996 00:10:40 GMT |
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Gerold Fi #7 / 12
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Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
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>: >What I find unbelievable is that an existing language like Basque could >: >have arisen independent of all language groups which is not the same as >: >saying that language groups cannot arise independently. >The main problem with basque is that Basque probably belonged to a group of >iberian languages which were wiped out first by celtic languages and then by >latin.
Right. The interesting hypothesis about Basque, which can be graphically seen in the _Penguin Atlas of Prehistory_ based on linguistics and what is known about human population movements, is that the Basque people and culture may be a very direct continuation of the ice-age peoples of europe. New arrivals displaced the original inhabitants, so this theory goes, in every corner of europe *except* in this small area of northern spain. It seems fairly plausible. Of course, the etruscans have been linked to every culture under the sun, at one time or another, but does anyone know whether any link between basque and etruscan has been verified? -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Disclaimer claims dat de claims claimed in dis are de claims of meself, me, and me alone, so sue us god. I won't tell Bill & Dave if you won't.
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Mon, 22 Jul 1996 04:39:13 GMT |
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michael brian sch #8 / 12
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Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
: Basque arose : - we ignore when : - we ignore where. : It was related to other languages spoken in this time in this place : ( could we assume a 6000 years old esperanto ? I do not) This is an interesting and good point: The "language trees" we so often see in historical linguistics seem to hint at some pre-historic single human language. Of course, this is the result of a "false lens"--i.e., a way of looking at languages that suggests a focal point that is not in fact the only convergence, but is instead the suggestion of a myriad interconnections among languages brought about through continuous human migration both as individuals and larger groups. A similar 'false lens' was read into the "African Eve" mitochondrial DNA results by the press, taking it to suggest that one woman was the producer of all modern humans, where it meant to suggest that all humans are in fact descendantly related to that hypothetical woman, and of course to many many others. As we all know, our personal descent trees spread out as we look back in time, even as the population was smaller, and so the mitochondrial DNA study argues for massive human migration through history and "prehistory." The suggestion for languages is clear, since we have an idea of how quickly languages change in relative isolation: A language like Basque had been isolate for an extremely long period somewhere in its history, or its relatives were replaced with other languages. : The other languages : - have disappeared : OR : - have changed to such a point that the relations are very difficult to : establish in a strong way. : The main hypothesis seems to look for relations in Caucasus. Now, I understand that the Caucasus is virtually a breeding ground for languages, historically, and that wideranging migrations in & out of the region are well known--but what else links Basque (or makes researchers think it is linked) to the Caucasus? : -- : Paul AMBLARD L.G.I. I.M.A.G. BP 53 F 38041 GRENOBLE Cedex 9
: Eur penner ha pa ve' fall, a dal kant skoe^d var eun all. Proverbe breton -- ------------------------------------------------------------
I'm a legal anthropologist. What's an illegal anthropologist?
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Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:36:46 GMT |
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Norbert Stra #9 / 12
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Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
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>Right. The interesting hypothesis about Basque, which can be graphically >seen in the _Penguin Atlas of Prehistory_ based on linguistics and what is >known about human population movements, is that the Basque people and >culture may be a very direct continuation of the ice-age peoples of europe. >New arrivals displaced the original inhabitants, so this theory goes, in >every corner of europe *except* in this small area of northern spain. It >seems fairly plausible.
The autochthoneous explanation of the Basque problem is the most consistent. But it isn't the Basques alone, who may be autochthoneous in Europe. Uralistics e.g. more and more agrees upon, that the peoples who speak Uralic languages might be the descendants of the first humans immigrating to the Northern Eurasian regions after the end of the ice age (which was much later there than in Central/Southern Europe). The Southern rim of the original Uralic area might have seen the displacement of the Uralian languages by Indo-European. This has been proved in some extent for Sami, which southernmost groups were displaced by Germanic (Scandinavian), and some southern Finno-Ugrian groups in Russia, that were displaced by Slavonic (Russian). Even some parts of the Baltic language area, esp. in Latvia, might have had a Uralic language once. Norbert
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Tue, 23 Jul 1996 22:33:58 GMT |
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Jacques G #10 / 12
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Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
Quote: >The also shown a piece of the longest iberian engraging preserving, which >was writing in a lead plate using Greek alphabet. This is the >following: > Iunstir'salir'g basirtir sabaridar bir'inar gurs > boistingisdid sesgersduran sesdirgagedin seraikala > naltinge bildidedin idurinenai becor sebadegiran....
*That* is interesting, for this language *sounds* like Basque. Added to the (weak) evidence of the few word pairs listed by Melendez, and the fact that Basque and Iberian are/were spoken in the same region, it makes it a far more attractive proposition than looking to the Caucasus or, as I think it's Greenberg who does that, to Na-Dene (in other words, Navaho). Why not Mars?
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Wed, 24 Jul 1996 07:57:15 GMT |
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Stanley Fries #11 / 12
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Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
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>*That* is interesting, for this language *sounds* like Basque. >Added to the (weak) evidence of the few word pairs listed >by Melendez, and the fact that Basque and Iberian are/were >spoken in the same region, it makes it a far more attractive >proposition than looking to the Caucasus or, as I think it's >Greenberg who does that, to Na-Dene (in other words, Navaho). >Why not Mars?
These are not entirely independent hypotheses. That is, it has been suggested that *most* of the pre-PIE languages of Europe were related to the Caucasian languages. [That is, not just Basque, but Iberian, Etruscan, Cretan, and so on]. If this is so, then it is clearly reasonable that Basque and Iberian form one sub-family of this larger macro-family - that is that Basque is closer to Iberian than to the other Macro-Caucasian languages. Furthermore, Greenberg, and others, have suggested that Macro- Caucasian, Sinitic, and Na-Dene form an even higher level grouping, on par with Nostratic, called Dene-Caucasian. In short, *all* *three* may be true. [Or, they may not - the evidence for including the European substratum languages in Macro-Caucasian is very weak, and, to a lesser extent, so is the evidence for the reality of Dene-Caucasian]. --
May the peace of God be with you.
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Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:47:32 GMT |
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Paul Ambla #12 / 12
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Basque (nee Re: Relation between Basque and Tamil)
Quote: >Now, I understand that the Caucasus is virtually a breeding ground for >languages, historically, and that wideranging migrations in & out of the >region are well known--but what else links Basque (or makes researchers >think it is linked) to the Caucasus?
I -personnally- do not know. We are in SCI.lang, not in IBELEIVE.lang I can only give my sources. I did not do research myself on the subject. The most recent paper I read on the subject was Natela STURUA, On the Basque-Caucasian Hypothesis STUDIA LINGUISTICA Vol 45, No 1/2 1991 pp 164-175 (Ed Scandinavia Univ Press Oslo) -- Paul AMBLARD L.G.I. I.M.A.G. BP 53 F 38041 GRENOBLE Cedex 9
Eur penner ha pa ve' fall, a dal kant skoe^d var eun all. Proverbe breton
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Sat, 27 Jul 1996 15:18:48 GMT |
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