Iberian substratum 
Author Message
 Iberian substratum
Could anybody explain the current status of knowledge accumulated about
the pre-IE linguistic situation in Europe, particularly the "Iberian
substratum".
How is this substratum visible in modern languages ?
If Iberian is taken strictly, I understand it means the ancient people
or tribe living in the peninsula of that name. But does it also include
the other indigenous peoples, like Tarraconian, Tartessian and Lusitanian ?
Are there others ? Does Basque belong somehow to "Iberian" ? And how are
Aquitanian and Vasconian (=Basque ?) related to it ?
In broader sense, some say "Iberian" was encountered also on the British
Isles, i.e. possibly the Picts in Scotland.
Also, why are the Southern Caucasians sometimes called "Iberians" ?
I read that some {*filter*} tests indicated Basque being related to Grusians
and other peoples in Georgia. In general it seems South Caucasian is the
best possibility for a Basque relationship. Does linguistic research also
support it nowadays ?

                                            Rgds T. Tommila



Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:26:19 GMT
 Iberian substratum
I hope this doesn't disappoint you, but good linguistic
evidence for a Basque-Kartvelian (or Basque-anything-in-
the-Caucasus) genetic relationship has not been forth-
coming. It's certainly not for lack of effort: several
European linguists (Rene Lafon, most notably, and even
the young Dumezil!) and a team of Georgians at Tbilisi
State University (headed by Shota Dzidziguri & Juri
Zytsar') have been grappling with the "Ibero-Caucasian"
hypothesis for decades. Despite a few seductive coincidences
(the place name "Iberia/Iveria", common to Spain and eastern
Georgia; an ergative case in -k in Basque and Laz/Mingrelian,
the ergative construction and polypersonal agreement in the
verb), nothing approaching the list of cognates correlated
by regular sound-laws, which linguists accept as proof of
common origin, has been demonstrated.
The attempts to find long-lost cousins for the Kartvelian
languages somewhat closer to home have yielded slightly
more promising results. E. J. Furnee and Rismag Gordeziani
have proposed common origins for a number of lexica in
Etruscan, Kartvelian and the pre-Greek ("Pelasgian") sub-
strate of ancient Greek. Gamkrelidze & Ivanov accept about
a dozen of the hundred or more etymologies offered by Furnee
as worthy of serious consideration. The German Kartvelologist
Heinz Faehnrich has published a list of over 200 possible
Sumerian-Kartvelian cognates, at least a few of which (e.g.
Sum. duk, Geo dok "jug"; Sum lik, Krtv lek'w/lak'w "dog")
might hold up to scrutiny.
If this stuff genuinely interests you, and you want references
to get you started, drop me a line.
Kevin Tuite
Universite de Montreal, Dept d'anthropologie



Sat, 13 Jan 1996 03:06:01 GMT
 Iberian substratum

[interesting stuff deleted]

Quote:
>Heinz Faehnrich has published a list of over 200 possible
>Sumerian-Kartvelian cognates, at least a few of which (e.g.
>Sum. duk, Geo dok "jug"; Sum lik, Krtv lek'w/lak'w "dog")
>might hold up to scrutiny.

Do you notice a similarity between Sum. lik, Krtv. lek'w/lak'w "dog" and
IE *wlkp-/*lukp- "wolf" > lat. lupus, gr. lykos, ingl. wolf, ...?
If I remember well, south caucasian languages were put into the Nostratic
group, and Sumerian has been proposed to be related, in turn, to Dravidian
and to Uralo/Altaic (again belonging to Nostratic).

I would add one personal observation: it has been said, somewhere on this
newsgroup, that Etruscan should be regarded as a relic of sino-caucasian,
like Basque; but it has been pointed out by prominent scholars such as
Pallottino (perhaps the greatest authority on Etruscology) and others that
Etruscan should be classified as "peri"-IE.
The problem with Etruscan is that we know too little words to do any serious
comparative study; but nevertheless, just for curiosity, consider the first
numerals in Basque, Etruscan and IE:

        Basque          Etruscan                IE

1.      bat                     thu(n)                  *sem-
2.      bi                      zal, esal-              *dwo
3.      hiru            ci                              *tri-/*trey-
4.      lau                     hut, huth               *kpatwr-
5.      bortz           mac, mach               *penkpe
6.      sei                     s'a                             *seks
7.      zazpi           semph                   *septm
8.      zortzi          cezp                    *okto:
9.      bederatzi       nurph                   *nowm

let alone the uncertain meaning of etruscan hut/s'a, and semph/cezp, which
could possibly be exchanged, I note the following:

1. where the IE numeral ends in sonant -m, the Etr. num. ends in -ph;
2. the num. for 5 appears to be formed, both in Etr. and in IE, by a
   basis *ma-|*pen- followed by the enclitic conjunction Etr. -c, -ch,
   IE *-kpe.
3. some sound correspondence are sort of hinted by the comparison between
   Etr. and IE, namely:

   Etr. liquid (-l-, -r-)  <-> IE -w-: Etr. za_l_, IE d_w_o,
                                       Etr. nu_r_ph, IE no_w_m;
   Etr. -m- <-> IE -p-: Etr. _m_ac, IE _p_enkpe; Etr. se_m_ph, IE se_p_tm,

   and so on, you can enjoy going on.

On the other hand, remark the little matching with Basque, which appears
clearly as the odd language out.

Comments?

Quote:
>Kevin Tuite
>Universite de Montreal, Dept d'anthropologie


Andrea Tettamanzi


Sat, 13 Jan 1996 18:29:53 GMT
 Iberian substratum

Quote:

>[interesting stuff deleted]
>>Heinz Faehnrich has published a list of over 200 possible
>>Sumerian-Kartvelian cognates, at least a few of which (e.g.
>>Sum. duk, Geo dok "jug"; Sum lik, Krtv lek'w/lak'w "dog")
>>might hold up to scrutiny.

>Do you notice a similarity between Sum. lik, Krtv. lek'w/lak'w "dog" and
>IE *wlkp-/*lukp- "wolf" > lat. lupus, gr. lykos, ingl. wolf, ...?

T. Gamkrelidze & V. Ivanov [Indoevrop. jazyk i Indoevropeicy, II, 492]
reconstruct PIE *wl-k0 [0 = {*filter*}lization] & *wl-p as two early IE
derivatives from *wl-/wel "tear, damage" (cp. latin vello "I tear").
Probably a taboo-formation: "the tearer/destroyer" = wolf.
Gamkrelidze is a native speaker of Georgian and an accomplished
Kartvelologist. He also has worked on Sumerian. If he doesn't see
a similarity of the sort you propose, I, at least, am unwilling to
gainsay him -- unless some very compelling evidence to the contrary
is forthcoming.

Quote:
>If I remember well, south caucasian languages were put into the Nostratic
>group, and Sumerian has been proposed to be related, in turn, to Dravidian
>and to Uralo/Altaic (again belonging to Nostratic).

The question of South Caucasian being genetically related to IE (as
opposed to sharing typological similarities and borrowed lexemes
due to contact with
early IE, Semitic, perhaps also Sumerian or its ancestor) remains open
and I remain skeptical.
Quote:
>I would add one personal observation: it has been said, somewhere on this
>newsgroup, that Etruscan should be regarded as a relic of sino-caucasian,
>like Basque; but it has been pointed out by prominent scholars such as
>Pallottino (perhaps the greatest authority on Etruscology) and others that
>Etruscan should be classified as "peri"-IE.
>The problem with Etruscan is that we know too little words to do any serious
>comparative study; but nevertheless, just for curiosity, consider the first
>numerals in Basque, Etruscan and IE:

[numeral lists deleted]
I have little to say about Etruscan, which I haven't thoroughly studied.
In my previous letter I simply pointed to work done by others
on the question of Etruscan-Caucasian lexical correspondances.
I don't know what you mean by "Sino-Caucasian" -- is this a misquote,
or some new mega-family spawned by Shevoroschin, Starostin, Ruhlen or
their ilk?
One more thing -- the alleged Etruscan number words come from a die
with words instead of dots on its facets, no? As I recall there are
grounds for uncertainty concerning the mapping of words to numbers,
or indeed whether they denote numbers at all.

Salut,
Kevin Tuite, UMontreal



Sun, 14 Jan 1996 07:50:36 GMT
 
 [ 4 post ] 

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