Eating insects, not meat... 
Author Message
 Eating insects, not meat...
Here is a very vague idea that I have been considering recently, I am
not sure of the implications, or the previous research done:

What if the a'piths were frutigores that started to lose 12 month fruit
and needed another major cooking.net">food source, obviously chimps eat some
termites here and there... But what if they needed, say 4 months worth
of non-fruit food.

Could they have scavenged little pieces of carrion to grow maggots on,
harvesting them every couple of days? If this is possible, it could be
a good pre-adaptation to going after killed or killing animals, not for
cooking.net">food directly, but for a strata on which to grow food...

????

-Spiznet



Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:54:22 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...

Quote:

> Here is a very vague idea that I have been considering recently, I am
> not sure of the implications, or the previous research done:

> What if the a'piths were frutigores that started to lose 12 month fruit
> and needed another major cooking.net">food source, obviously chimps eat some
> termites here and there... But what if they needed, say 4 months worth
> of non-fruit food.

> Could they have scavenged little pieces of carrion to grow maggots on,
> harvesting them every couple of days? If this is possible, it could be
> a good pre-adaptation to going after killed or killing animals, not for
> cooking.net">food directly, but for a strata on which to grow food...

Why would they wait for the carrion to turn into maggots? Second law of
the*modynam*cs says they will obtain more energy & cooking.net">food value direct
from the meat itself than after it's been reprocessed by insect larvae.

Interesting speculation though...

Ross Macfarlane



Tue, 22 Apr 2008 06:36:27 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...


Quote:


> > Here is a very vague idea that I have been considering recently, I am
> > not sure of the implications, or the previous research done:

> > What if the a'piths were frutigores that started to lose 12 month fruit
> > and needed another major cooking.net">food source, obviously chimps eat some
> > termites here and there... But what if they needed, say 4 months worth
> > of non-fruit food.

> > Could they have scavenged little pieces of carrion to grow maggots on,
> > harvesting them every couple of days? If this is possible, it could be
> > a good pre-adaptation to going after killed or killing animals, not for
> > cooking.net">food directly, but for a strata on which to grow food...

> Why would they wait for the carrion to turn into maggots? Second law of
> the*modynam*cs says they will obtain more energy & cooking.net">food value direct
> from the meat itself than after it's been reprocessed by insect larvae.

> Interesting speculation though...

> Ross Macfarlane

Article about nutrition in a group that had moved from homeland to Great
Britain - seems kids were fed same diet as in old country but now failing to
thrive.  Turned out that what was missing was the critters in the rice that
was continually present in the homeland.  That small amount of insect
protein as enough to make the difference.

While I don't particularly recommend buggies in your food, the point is that
small dietary changes can make a difference in a very limited diet.

Jois

--
 I know that the majority of people on this ng are hostile to the idea
 that moving through water might have influenced our evolution.

Algis 10-15/16-05
Surprise! Surprise!



Tue, 22 Apr 2008 06:45:14 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...

Quote:




> > > Here is a very vague idea that I have been considering recently, I am
> > > not sure of the implications, or the previous research done:

> > > What if the a'piths were frutigores that started to lose 12 month fruit
> > > and needed another major cooking.net">food source, obviously chimps eat some
> > > termites here and there... But what if they needed, say 4 months worth
> > > of non-fruit food.

> > > Could they have scavenged little pieces of carrion to grow maggots on,
> > > harvesting them every couple of days? If this is possible, it could be
> > > a good pre-adaptation to going after killed or killing animals, not for
> > > cooking.net">food directly, but for a strata on which to grow food...

> > Why would they wait for the carrion to turn into maggots? Second law of
> > the*modynam*cs says they will obtain more energy & cooking.net">food value direct
> > from the meat itself than after it's been reprocessed by insect larvae.

> > Interesting speculation though...

> > Ross Macfarlane

> Article about nutrition in a group that had moved from homeland to Great
> Britain - seems kids were fed same diet as in old country but now failing to
> thrive.  Turned out that what was missing was the critters in the rice that
> was continually present in the homeland.  That small amount of insect
> protein as enough to make the difference.

> While I don't particularly recommend buggies in your food, the point is that
> small dietary changes can make a difference in a very limited diet.

Good point, but probably it was a plant-based cooking.net">food that had small
amounts of animal protein in it, as opposed to the carrion which is
already meat-based?

In a similar vein, figs are one of the best foods for rainforest
frugivores such as orangs, because they contain tiny wasps (flightless
females spend their lifecycles inside the fruit) and hence are a source
of additional protein...

Ross Macfarlane



Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:02:52 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...

Quote:

> Why would they wait for the carrion to turn into maggots?

Because they might not be able to eat carrion.

--
pete



Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:21:33 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...

Quote:


> > Why would they wait for the carrion to turn into maggots?

> Because they might not be able to eat carrion.

> --
> pete

Chimps don't have problems with raw meat...

Ross Macfarlane



Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:38:54 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...
So the LCA was already omnivorous, just a matter of expediency...


Tue, 22 Apr 2008 07:44:24 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...

Quote:



> > > Why would they wait for the carrion to turn into maggots?

> > Because they might not be able to eat carrion.

> > --
> > pete

> Chimps don't have problems with raw meat...

Raw meat? That's what you get when you're hunting.
That's not carrion. Carrion is what vultures eat.

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/carrion

--
pete



Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:18:11 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...

Quote:




> > > > Why would they wait for the carrion to turn into maggots?

> > > Because they might not be able to eat carrion.

> > > --
> > > pete

> > Chimps don't have problems with raw meat...

> Raw meat? That's what you get when you're hunting.
> That's not carrion. Carrion is what vultures eat.

> http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/carrion

I am aware of the distinction Pete, thanks.

Functionally the primary difference is the level of decay and
potentially harmful bacteria. I don't dispute that maggots would be
more easily digestible than fresh meat or carrion, & therefore not
totally implausible as a cooking.net">food source. However I'd suggest that the leap
from fresh meat to carrion isn't a great one, and that natural
selection would not take many generations to select, from among an
already meat-eating population, those of stronger stomachs who could
tolerate the extra microbiological load. (Not perhaps able to handle
bone & gristle like a hyena, but at least able to cope with a few
billion tummy bugs...)

Ross Macfarlane



Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:45:52 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...


Quote:






[snip]

Quote:

> > While I don't particularly recommend buggies in your food, the point is
that
> > small dietary changes can make a difference in a very limited diet.

> Good point, but probably it was a plant-based cooking.net">food that had small
> amounts of animal protein in it, as opposed to the carrion which is
> already meat-based?

Ick ick ick.  Ross, you know I wouldn't even consider carrion and bug lunch.

Jois



Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:40:05 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...


Quote:





> > > > > Why would they wait for the carrion to turn into maggots?

> > > > Because they might not be able to eat carrion.

> > > > --
> > > > pete

> > > Chimps don't have problems with raw meat...

> > Raw meat? That's what you get when you're hunting.
> > That's not carrion. Carrion is what vultures eat.

> > http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/carrion

> I am aware of the distinction Pete, thanks.

> Functionally the primary difference is the level of decay and
> potentially harmful bacteria. I don't dispute that maggots would be
> more easily digestible than fresh meat or carrion, & therefore not
> totally implausible as a cooking.net">food source. However I'd suggest that the leap
> from fresh meat to carrion isn't a great one, and that natural
> selection would not take many generations to select, from among an
> already meat-eating population, those of stronger stomachs who could
> tolerate the extra microbiological load. (Not perhaps able to handle
> bone & gristle like a hyena, but at least able to cope with a few
> billion tummy bugs...)

> Ross Macfarlane

Even big eaters like the large cats avoid the intestines' contents.  Got to
be that the bacterial load is too great even in an animal that just died.
Tissue still enclosed in skin (larger muscles) would probably remain not too
too bad for a while.  Intestines and abdominal contents in general would
'spoil' pretty quickly.

Jois



Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:50:23 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...

Quote:







> [snip]

> > > While I don't particularly recommend buggies in your food, the point is
> that
> > > small dietary changes can make a difference in a very limited diet.

> > Good point, but probably it was a plant-based cooking.net">food that had small
> > amounts of animal protein in it, as opposed to the carrion which is
> > already meat-based?

> Ick ick ick.  Ross, you know I wouldn't even consider carrion and bug lunch.

Soft - I had thought you'd be made of sterner stuff Jois... :-)


Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:04:11 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...

...

Quote:

> Even big eaters like the large cats avoid the intestines' contents.  Got to
> be that the bacterial load is too great even in an animal that just died.
> Tissue still enclosed in skin (larger muscles) would probably remain not too
> too bad for a while.  Intestines and abdominal contents in general would
> 'spoil' pretty quickly.

And of course the larger muscles aren't usually the bits that are left
over as carrion - they're what gets eaten first.

Care to sample the maggots crawling out of the semi-decayed stomach
cavity? Quite a delicacy in these parts...

Ross Macfarlane :-)

Quote:
> Ick Ick Ick!

- Jois, 4-Nov-2005


Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:11:24 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...

Quote:





> > > > > Why would they wait for the carrion to turn into maggots?

> > > > Because they might not be able to eat carrion.

> > > > --
> > > > pete

> > > Chimps don't have problems with raw meat...

> > Raw meat? That's what you get when you're hunting.
> > That's not carrion. Carrion is what vultures eat.

> > http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/carrion

> I am aware of the distinction Pete, thanks.

Well then, that expalins why you didn't say

    "Chimps don't have problems with carrion..."

... because chimps don't eat carrion!

Will natural selection take many generations to select,
from among an already meat-eating chimp population,
those of stronger stomachs who can
tolerate the extra microbiological load of carrion?
No, it won't.
The chimps don't live in a carrion rich, game sparse environment,
and there's no selective pressure towards scavenging.
There is selective pressure for them to become better hunters.

What time frame is spiznet talking about for maggot farming?

--
pete



Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:52:01 GMT
 Eating insects, not meat...
   I'll toss in a couple of scents - venison was supposed to be gamey.
Said that a down easterner didn't consider it suitable until a dog
refused to eat it.
    Meriwether Lewis (I think - or maybe Clark) mentions killing a
deer, and one Shoshone got as his part a section of intestine.
Squeezed the contents out with one hand while he fed the other end in
his mouth.   And the Apaches foxed the soldiers who put guards on
critical water holes.   The Apaches levied a bunch of horses from some
rancher, rode one until it dropped, ate the meat, and emptied the small
intestine, which was filled with water and wrapped around another
horse.  Shoot, baby elephants eat the parents dung to get the
intestinal flora.
     And be careful with pups - don't let them around manure, because
they may develope habits you would find objectionable, even with
enriched dog cooking.net">food available.
     Cheers,.
      John GW


Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:06:22 GMT
 
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