ORIGINS AND DIASPORA

by Ronald Lee

For almost five-hundred years after we appeared in Europe in the late 14th and
early 15th centuries, Europeans were asking where we had come from. By then,
the Roma people had almost forgotten their origins in North-Central India
although some Roma did tell Italians who asked them in the Italian City States
in the 15th century. This has been buried in the archives until recently.

Because dark-skinned people from the Middle-East had been brought to Europe
before the arrival of the Roma by the Venetians and other entrepreneurs to
perform as acrobats, jugglers, musicians and dancers and because these people
were loosely called "Egyptians" the Roma too were identified as "Egyptians"
which in English, was later shortened to "Gypsy." Some Roma groups had come to
Central and Eastern Europe from a region in Greece called "Little Egypt" and
others from Anatolia. Both of these regions were known as Kleine Aegypter in
German which means "Little Egypt" or "Egypt Minor."

Recent studies conducted by Indian scholars in India and by Romani scholars
have finally confirmed the origins of the Romani people. We originated in India
but were not one specific group of Indians, not all of one caste and not even
one people. In the 11th century ad there was a group of petty kingdoms in
Gurjara in the Northwest area of India in what was then the Rajput Confederacy.
These were feudal-type societies composed of a caste of warrior-landowners (
Kshatriya ) and a supporting population of non-warriors composed of workers and
artisans who did all the work for the ruling warrior caste. Some were farmers
working with animals or bred and trained horses for the warrior caste who
fought on horseback as cavalry. others were metal smiths, some entertainers,
others craftspeople, silver smiths, gold smiths or laundry men and women, in
other words, all the people needed to maintain a working society of people.

Each family and clan of the sub-castes had a trade or profession which was
practised by the family and clan as a whole. This was part of the Hindu
religion called the Laws of Manu where everyone belonged to a particular caste
which did a particular type of work. This is how the Roma were in Europe in the
past, each family and clan had a work skill which was passed on from one
generation to the next, music, horse-trading, brick making, coppersmithing or
whatever. Many groups in this supporting population belonged to a collection of
castes called Domba in the plural ( Dom (man) and Domni (woman) in the singular
) which then meant, "The People" or "Human Beings." Each of these small Rajput
kingdoms was ruled by a thakur, or petty king and collectively, the kings
served an elected king who was the supreme ruler. Thakur or Thagar exists in
Romani in some dialects today meaning "leader.".

In the early 11th Century ad, a Muslim kingdom arose in what is now Afghanistan
called the Ghaznavid Empire. These Ghaznavids began raiding into India under
their leader Mahmud Ghazni and came into direct conflict with the Rajput
Confederacy. Until 1192, there was constant warfare, looting, destruction of
towns and cities and disruption of the Rajput Confederacy. During this time,
some Rajput groups were forced to migrate or move elsewhere to escape the
destruction, massacres and slavery. Some moved South, some West but one or more
groups decided to move North into the Upper-Indus Valley through Kashmir. They
found refuge in the extreme North of India where the local people spoke Dardic
languages. Here, the refugees livedfor a couple of generations or more and
picked up some words and grammatical elements of Dardic which was added to
their Sanskritic language from North-Central India.

The Muslims from Afghanistan then moved up into the area where the ancestors of
the Roma had established themselves and began raiding and plundering again.
With no avenue of escape left, the harassed ancestors of the Roma then passed
through the Shandur or Baroghil Passes into Asia and followed the Silk Road,
used by caravans of traders, to ancient Persia. They remained in Persia for a
few generations, then made their way into the Empire of Trebizond on the Black
Sea where the local people spoke Armenian. The Roma then added Armenian words
to the Persian words they had learned in Persia.

The invasion of the Seljuk Turks then forced the Roma to leave Trebizond and
they escaped into the Byzantine Empire around the city of Constantinople ( now
Istanbul). Here we learned many Greek words. By this time, the original caste
system of India had disappeared and the mixed group of tribes, castes and
peoples who had left India had become one people speaking a common language
which had by now become proto Romani. Since the Domba group composed the
largest number of people and because they were the ones most suited to be able
to survive by their skills outside of India, they became predominate and we now
called ourselves Roma. The original D sound of Sanskrit had changed to an R
during the migration from India as the original Indo-Aryan sounds were modified
by surrounding non-Romani languages we had to speak to communicate with the
local people. Originally, our language had three D sounds but one of these was
changed to an R after we left India.

From Byzantium, the Roma began to enter the Balkans by the 13th century and
some groups slowly moved through the Slavic-speaking regions picking up words
of old Serbian and other Slavic languages until they reached Rumania where we
added a few Rumanian words to the Romani language. Other groups of Roma
remained in the Balkans. This part of our history cannot be disputed because
all Romani dialects spoken today from Wales in Britain to Siberia contain these
same loan words from Dardic, Persian. Armenian, Byzantine Greek, Old Slavic and
Rumanian. Had the exodus from India been through Afghanistan, as European
scholars still maintain, Romani would have loan words from Pushtu and the other
languages spoken there and could not have picked up the Dardic words and
grammatical elements from the Upper Indus Valley. Also, Afghanistan was the
centre of the Ghaznavid Empire, the people who had driven the ancestors of the
Roma from India. Would Roma fleeing the Nazi Holocaust in World War II have
tried to escape by fleeing back into Nazi Germany?.

After reaching Rumania, groups of Roma drifted off in different directions in
small groups, each with its leader, and made their way into all countries of
Europe in the 15th century. By 1500 we were everywhere from the British Isles
and Spain, as far east as Poland, as far North as Norway and still as far South
as Greece. Many Roma remained in Wallachia and Moldavia where they were soon
gradually enslaved and were held in {*filter*} until the Emancipation of 1865.
Historians refer to this exodus, migration and dispersal of the Roma as origins
and Diaspora. We originated in North-Central India, migrated via the
Upper-Indus Valley, Persia, the Caucuses, Armenia, Byzantium, Greece, the
Kingdom of Serbia and what is now Rumania to Eastern Europe and then split off
into smallish groups and made our way into all the countries of Europe.

Up to this point, we had travelled more or less together as one people and
spoke a common Romani language. Once we dispersed into all the countries of
Europe, we lost our unity as one people and our common language slowly
deteriorated into a large number of dialects because we lived in different
countries of Europe, were surrounded by non-Roma who spoke many languages which
we borrowed from and because Roma living in Russia never met Roma from Greece,
Bohemia or Britain and vice versa. Thus, the different groups of Roma that
exist today, speaking different dialects, living in different countries, are
the result of our history after we arrived in Europe. Originally, when we
entered Europe, we were one people called Roma with an origin in India.

How do we know when we left India? European scholars often maintain we left at
different times as much as 500 years or more apart. This does not stand up to
the evidence. The Romani language is a sister language of a group of
Sanskrit-based languages such as Rajasthani, Hindi, Gujarati, Bengali, Multani
and others. All of these languages developed in parallel. Linguistic evidence
shows that Romani developed in parallel to them until the 11th century ad.
Then, the sister languages continued to develop in parallel to one another in
India while Romani did not. It was influenced by languages outside of India.
Thus, there is no doubt that our ancestors left India in the 11th century ad.
.Had groups of Roma left India 500 years earlier or later their Indian element
of their Romani dialects would not be in parallel to other Romani dialects nor
with the sister languages still spoken in India as they were grammatically in
the 11th century ad.

European scholars tried to define us by what we were in Europe. They assumed we
had always been a caste of nomads even in India. This does not hold true. All
words in Romani dialects today that have to do with a settled community with
roots are words brought from India, for example gav (village), puv (land), ker
(house), guruv (bull, ox), gurumni (cow), kaini (chicken), etc.

On the other hand, words one would assume Indian nomads to have needed and
preserved including the wild animals and birds are words borrowed from
languages outside of India such as camp, tent, trail, spring, tiger, elephant,

Furthermore, the military words in Romani such as xanro (sword), tover ( now
axe or cutting tool but related to 'tulwar"), busht (spear), kuro ( horse), and
patav (leggings, leg bindings, or "puttees"). Rajput cavalry wrapped their legs
in strips of cloth to prevent them from chaffing against the rope stirrups they
used .Why would nomads needs words such as this and why preserve them unless
the Rajputs had led their followers out of India and maintained their ...

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A documentary I saw recently about Czechoslovakian/Hungarian gypsy community
was complementary to what I have already known. Although some of the gypsies
do settle, kind of, their lifestyle do not seem to be suggestive of their
intention to put down roots and develop a community for future generations.
They are almost ready to pick up and move at the slightest notice. The same
situation was in Russia in many places in Soviet times.

They are talented people especially musically and this aspect is appreciated
by the locals, however, there have always been frictions between the gypsies
and the latter. They have a reputation for stealing though in the
environment they lived in there was not much available to steal. They seem
to be content living in poverty.

I want to use this post to draw people into a discussion on another
phenomenon closer to home. A couple of years ago a surveillance camera in a
parking lot of a large department store somewhere in the South caught a
scene of a young mother physically punishing her daughter for some minor
transgression. She then shoved her into an SUV and drove away. The police
got the license plate number from the store security and a nation wide
manhunt was on the way. The woman then saw herself on TV and freaked out.

It turned out she had an attorney who had arranged for her to surrender and
she probably received some probation eventually but for two weeks the papers
were filled with fascinating details about her secretive community. She was
an "Irish Gypsy." I think her last name was Young{*filter*} or Strong{*filter*} or
something.

They drift from place to place stealing from stores frequently using their
kids as a decoy, diversion or as accomplices counting on the fact that the
police would be unlikely to prosecute a juvenile.

According to the papers they spend winters in a couple of communities in the
United States where they socialize, make matrimonial arrangements and trade.
They are highly materialistic and the status of a person depends on the
number of cars they have and other signs of success. Keep in mind that
everything they have has ostensibly been somewhere stolen.

What tickled me the most is the frequent mentioning of their "strong"
Catholic faith. That is something out of this world entirely.

I am wondering if anyone has any information on this group? I think a kind
of a special lingo was mentioned in their connection.

Here I want to get back to the real gypsies, those who live in Russia. What
is interesting is that they do not seem to have "an accent" when speak or
sing in their tongue. OK, they migrated from India where the phonemes in
many related languages are so different from the European languages,
including English that this fact is difficult for many of them to overcome
even after years of living in the West. It handicaps them with a heavy
accent. The Russian and in general East European Gypsies have phonemic
spectrum close to the surrounding languages, not the languages of the places
they came from. This is quite an interesting subject. Any literature on
this?

Do Spanish Gypsies still have a language of their own, or do they
speak only (Andalusian) Spanish?

--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal

I think her last name was Young{*filter*} or Strong{*filter*} or

http://sca.lib.liv.ac.uk/collections/gypsy/travell.htm

http://groups.msn.com/romaintheuk/irishtravellers.msnw

http://www.nccbuscc.org/mrs/pcmr/gypsy.htm

http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/cultureintro.html

The members of the Indo - European linguistic family include the Germans ,
Slavs , Celts , Latins , Greeks , Albanians , Armenians , and the Indo -
Iranians or Sanskrit Aryans , the latter branch including the Baltic Old
Prussians , Lithuanians , and Latvians as well as the Iranians or Sankrit
people of Iran , Afghanistan , Pakistan , and northern India . The word
Aryan comes from the Sanskrit word " Arya , " which means " nobles , " or "
owners of land . " When the Indo - European speaking Iranians invaded and
conquered from 1500 B.C onwards from their original homelands of what is now
southern Russia the lands of what today make the nation - states of Iran ,
Pakistan , Afghanistan , and India , they usually intermarried with the
natives or earlier invaders , usually in the form of a master - slave
relationship , where the conquered native women usually became the
concubines of their harem - keeping slave master . The offspring of such
relationships usually themselves became slaves , as the Colored or mixed -
race/miscegenated people of Apartheid South Africa . In India , such so -
called " half castes " formed the " Sudra " or " Labourer " caste , as
opposed to the " Dasa ," or " black " caste , that is , the racially unmixed
but enslaved dark - brown skinned Dravidian peoples of India . The words "
Sudra " and " Dasa " belong to the Sanskrit branch of the Indo - European
speaking people , as opposed to the non - Indo - European speaking Dravidian
people.

The various branches of the Indo - European speaking family came originally
as semi - nomadic warrior hor{*filter*} and herders from the steppes and prairies
of the lands north of the Black and Caspian seas , from where they conquered
the other lands of Europe , the Middle East , and India from around 2500
B.C. onwards , gradually mixing with the previous inhabitants of those lands
, with the conquered people usually reduced to the status of slaves and
serfs . The remnants of the non - Indo - European speaking peoples include
such ethnic and linguistic groups as the Guanches of the Canary Islands
archipelago , the Basques of the Pyrenees , the Berbers or Hamites of the
Atlas Mountain ranges of North - West Africa and the oases of the Sahara
desert , and the Berbers are distant cousins of the Arabs , the Picts of the
Scottish Higlands , the Iberians of pre - 900 B.C. Spain and Portugal , the
Arabs , the Sumerians , the Georgians of the Caucasus Mountain range that
separates Turkey from Georgia , Armenia , and Azerbaijan , the Lapps , Finns
, Estonians , Hungarians , and Turks , the Burushaski of the Hunza Valley of
Pakistan , the Dravidians of the Punjab and of central and southern India ,
the Elamites of Iran before the coming of the Iranians in around 1500 B.C.
onwards , the Ligurians and Elymians of pre - 1000 B.C. Italy and Sicily ,
the Pelasgoi and Eteo - Cretans of pre - 2000 B.C. Greece and Crete , the
Lydians , of whom the Etruscans traced their ancestry from , Mysians ,
Carians , Pamphylians and Cappadocians of what is now the Turkish or
Anatolian peninsula before the conquests of Alexander the Great , and the
Ainu of Hokkaido , Sakhalin , the Pacific provinces of Russian Siberia , the
Kurile Islands , and the Kamchatka Peninsula .

A provocative contrarian version has been expressed, however. According to
this anthropologist whose name I cannot recall the wave of migrants did come
but the natives kept the command position, essentially enslaving them or
making them to work for them. He came to this conclusion by studying skulls
and other skeletal features of the "ruling cast" of Japanese society and
those of Ainus and found more similarities between the latter than between
the ruling class and ordinary Japanese. In particular both Ainus and high
ranking Japanese are dolichocephalic. Ordinary Japanese are brachiocephalic.

The Ainu formed an important part of the Japanese knightly class called the
samurai, many of whom intermarried with the Korean-descended Japanese ruling
class. Recent D.N.A. tests prove that the people of northern Japan have a
higher degree of  part-Ainu ancestry than the people of the other parts of
Japan. The Japanese language belongs to the Ural-Altaic language family,
which includes Korean, Manchurian, Tungusic, Inner and Outer Mongolian,
Turkish, Finnish, Estonian, Lapp, and Hungarian. The Ainu are closely
related to the Eastern Finns, according to recent D.N.A. tests. The martial
art of judo, which comes from the samurai martial art of jujitsu, was made a
compulsory requirement in Japanese schools in 1911, although it was banned
from Japanese schools from 1945 to 1951. The three techniques of judo are
nagewaza [ throwing ], katamewaza [ wrestling ], and atemiwaza [ punching
and kicking ]. Atemiwaza may only be taught to judokas above the rank of
white belt, and may only be used by them in training and self-defense, but
never in judo sporting competitions. During the Second World War, when low
on bullets and food, Japanese soldiers would often launch a banzai bayonet
charge and a judo-atemiwaza attack. After 1945, the three years compulsory
military service for Japanese males over the age of 21 was abolished,
although judo and jujitsu still forms an important part of the voluntary
Japanese Self-Defense Forces to this day, and judo is still an important
part of the Japanese physical education curriculum in our times.

I do recall that there was one tribe of Rromas who called themselves
"Sinti", which sounds strikingly similar to Sindhi.  This is why some
observers think that the Rroma may come from the Sindh area.
Personally, I think that the Rromas come from the Sindh/Rajastan and
maybe Punjab areas.

Let me answer your points one-by-one...

Thanks for the info, but what does it have to do with the Rroma?